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	<title>Comments on: Introduction</title>
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	<description>Discuss.</description>
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		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129402</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 17:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129402</guid>
		<description>Yes, I think the point is that geeks are especially suspicious of attempts by any one entity to create a &quot;level playing field&quot; and see it (perhaps too cynically) as one more strategic move in a game to own standards, systems, platforms, formats, etc.  So the core idea of a recursive public is a system so open, and so recursively modifiable that the game always remains open to new entrants and new plays--and that it is this very openness that levels the playing field, not any one entity or any one rationality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I think the point is that geeks are especially suspicious of attempts by any one entity to create a &#8220;level playing field&#8221; and see it (perhaps too cynically) as one more strategic move in a game to own standards, systems, platforms, formats, etc.  So the core idea of a recursive public is a system so open, and so recursively modifiable that the game always remains open to new entrants and new plays&#8211;and that it is this very openness that levels the playing field, not any one entity or any one rationality.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Kahn Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129130</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Kahn Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:59:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129130</guid>
		<description>i think obsessive archiving is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  While some of it is probably due to &quot;archival hubris&quot;, i think that much of it is actually due to a pervasive fear of screwups, fear of forgetfulness, and in search of the goals of modifiability and flexibility that you outline elsewhere in the book.

In particular, during discussions, arguments and planning processes, there&#039;s a sense of concern that any given decision made today may turn out to be the wrong decision, or may in the future be made in a different way.  Obsessive archiving mitigates the possibility that future decision-makers will be perplexed by the outcome of the process, and will remind them (if they care to read) of the rationales we had in mind when we were coming to terms with the decision we were making.  If the context of the decision turns out to be no longer relevant in 5 years, then reversing the outcome of the decision is no big deal.  But if there were subtle nuances in rationale that are still relevant, an attempt to reverse the outcome can be more easily rebutted.

Also, obsessive archiving (along with an explicit or implicit faith in the power of mechanized search) is seen as a time-saver -- if we can have the discussion with each other in the public, then no one needs to spend any extra time writing or fact-checking minutes, summaries, etc.

This doesn&#039;t work out all the time, so summaries are still needed for some monstrous discussions, or particularly high-bandwidth topics (see, for example, &lt;a href=&quot;http://lwn.net/Kernel/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jon Corbet&#039;s ongoing summaries&lt;/a&gt; of Linux kernel development).  But for smaller discussions and projects, the original archives themselves are a more effective use of limited collaborator hours than preparing and publishing synopses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think obsessive archiving is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  While some of it is probably due to &#8220;archival hubris&#8221;, i think that much of it is actually due to a pervasive fear of screwups, fear of forgetfulness, and in search of the goals of modifiability and flexibility that you outline elsewhere in the book.</p>
<p>In particular, during discussions, arguments and planning processes, there&#8217;s a sense of concern that any given decision made today may turn out to be the wrong decision, or may in the future be made in a different way.  Obsessive archiving mitigates the possibility that future decision-makers will be perplexed by the outcome of the process, and will remind them (if they care to read) of the rationales we had in mind when we were coming to terms with the decision we were making.  If the context of the decision turns out to be no longer relevant in 5 years, then reversing the outcome of the decision is no big deal.  But if there were subtle nuances in rationale that are still relevant, an attempt to reverse the outcome can be more easily rebutted.</p>
<p>Also, obsessive archiving (along with an explicit or implicit faith in the power of mechanized search) is seen as a time-saver &#8212; if we can have the discussion with each other in the public, then no one needs to spend any extra time writing or fact-checking minutes, summaries, etc.</p>
<p>This doesn&#8217;t work out all the time, so summaries are still needed for some monstrous discussions, or particularly high-bandwidth topics (see, for example, <a href="http://lwn.net/Kernel/" rel="nofollow">Jon Corbet&#8217;s ongoing summaries</a> of Linux kernel development).  But for smaller discussions and projects, the original archives themselves are a more effective use of limited collaborator hours than preparing and publishing synopses.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Kahn Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129124</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Kahn Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129124</guid>
		<description>nit picking: &quot;level it to their advantage&quot; (used twice in this paragraph) doesn&#039;t make a lot of sense -- to level a playing field is to remove any intrinsic advantage for one player or another.  it seems jarring, unless the point you&#039;re trying to make here is that the act of leveling itself is intrinsically impossible, or that hidden biases are implicit in any act of &quot;leveling&quot;.

&quot;bias it to their advantage&quot; might be better, or maybe &quot;tilt it to their advantage&quot; (which keeps the metaphor alive a bit longer).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nit picking: &#8220;level it to their advantage&#8221; (used twice in this paragraph) doesn&#8217;t make a lot of sense &#8212; to level a playing field is to remove any intrinsic advantage for one player or another.  it seems jarring, unless the point you&#8217;re trying to make here is that the act of leveling itself is intrinsically impossible, or that hidden biases are implicit in any act of &#8220;leveling&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;bias it to their advantage&#8221; might be better, or maybe &#8220;tilt it to their advantage&#8221; (which keeps the metaphor alive a bit longer).</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-21315</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-21315</guid>
		<description>@jennifer

Absolutely.  Second Life and fan fiction are both great examples to explore in this context.  With second life, the key difference is that Linden Labs has absolute authority over what happens there... but beyond that, certain elements of free software practices are central to second lifers understanding of what they create.

Fan fiction is an even better example because of the way it liberates not just texts or material copies, but characters, plots, situations.  Fan-subbing in anime i another good example.  Here the key difference is the quasi-legality of it.  Free software has figured out a way to create a legal commons that opts out of corporate provision of software... fan fiction and fan subbing exist in uneasy relation to that same corporate provision: they need it to feed their understanding and inhabitation of their worlds, but they deconstruct it and make it public at the same time.  I hope it&#039;s clear that I think using free software as a template for asking about the practices involved in either case is a way of trying to make more precise what makes a public, and what makes publics valuable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@jennifer</p>
<p>Absolutely.  Second Life and fan fiction are both great examples to explore in this context.  With second life, the key difference is that Linden Labs has absolute authority over what happens there&#8230; but beyond that, certain elements of free software practices are central to second lifers understanding of what they create.</p>
<p>Fan fiction is an even better example because of the way it liberates not just texts or material copies, but characters, plots, situations.  Fan-subbing in anime i another good example.  Here the key difference is the quasi-legality of it.  Free software has figured out a way to create a legal commons that opts out of corporate provision of software&#8230; fan fiction and fan subbing exist in uneasy relation to that same corporate provision: they need it to feed their understanding and inhabitation of their worlds, but they deconstruct it and make it public at the same time.  I hope it&#8217;s clear that I think using free software as a template for asking about the practices involved in either case is a way of trying to make more precise what makes a public, and what makes publics valuable.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer Terrell</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-21310</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer Terrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 22:18:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-21310</guid>
		<description>Hello Dr. Kelty,

I am thinking about how one would apply your concept of recursive public to other groups who may, like free software geeks, be difficult to frame. A key concept for recursive public that you set forth is the generation and modification of infrastructure of the group. To what extent can one be liberal with concepts of infrastructure? Thinking about modifiability reminds me of many groups who play with the world they are in, be it a literary world or a virtual world such as second life. Building infrastructure for free software geeks at times literally means coding their world, but can we say that fans who write fan fiction are also crafting their world through the modification of literary canon? Are residents of second life who work to build virtual products and building structures and thus create the second life landscape also maintaining their infrastructure? In this sense can we apply the recursive public framework to these groups as well?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Dr. Kelty,</p>
<p>I am thinking about how one would apply your concept of recursive public to other groups who may, like free software geeks, be difficult to frame. A key concept for recursive public that you set forth is the generation and modification of infrastructure of the group. To what extent can one be liberal with concepts of infrastructure? Thinking about modifiability reminds me of many groups who play with the world they are in, be it a literary world or a virtual world such as second life. Building infrastructure for free software geeks at times literally means coding their world, but can we say that fans who write fan fiction are also crafting their world through the modification of literary canon? Are residents of second life who work to build virtual products and building structures and thus create the second life landscape also maintaining their infrastructure? In this sense can we apply the recursive public framework to these groups as well?</p>
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		<title>By: Zbigniew Lukasiak</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-11431</link>
		<dc:creator>Zbigniew Lukasiak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 12:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-11431</guid>
		<description>Maybe it&#039;s nothing important but in the spirit of Open Source I would like to remark that at paragraph 34 page 14 - the word &#039;perl&#039; (which in this version means the interpreter installed at a particular machine) should be &#039;Perl&#039; (which means the Perl programming language). See: http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe it&#8217;s nothing important but in the spirit of Open Source I would like to remark that at paragraph 34 page 14 &#8211; the word &#8216;perl&#8217; (which in this version means the interpreter installed at a particular machine) should be &#8216;Perl&#8217; (which means the Perl programming language). See: <a href="http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f" rel="nofollow">http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f</a></p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5315</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5315</guid>
		<description>@Javier
I wouldn&#039;t necessarily include downloading TV programs unless it involved freely licensed TV programs (like DemocracyTV/Miro).  Otherwise the reality is that though I agree with you ethically, it is still illegal to download and watch the TV programs.

What&#039;s worse though is that it is illegal for you to do something productive and valuable, like add english subtitles to a spanish program and re-distribute it.  Free Culture advocates would argue that this kind of consumer participation should not be criminalized, and I would agree.  

re: culture... not sure I can answer your question here.  I tried to avoid using the term as much as possible, but when I do use it, I use it to refer to the former definition you give--that of a totality of economic, behavioral, technical, aesthetic and so on, rules and norms that produce a sense of affinity or kinship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Javier<br />
I wouldn&#8217;t necessarily include downloading TV programs unless it involved freely licensed TV programs (like DemocracyTV/Miro).  Otherwise the reality is that though I agree with you ethically, it is still illegal to download and watch the TV programs.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s worse though is that it is illegal for you to do something productive and valuable, like add english subtitles to a spanish program and re-distribute it.  Free Culture advocates would argue that this kind of consumer participation should not be criminalized, and I would agree.  </p>
<p>re: culture&#8230; not sure I can answer your question here.  I tried to avoid using the term as much as possible, but when I do use it, I use it to refer to the former definition you give&#8211;that of a totality of economic, behavioral, technical, aesthetic and so on, rules and norms that produce a sense of affinity or kinship.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5314</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5314</guid>
		<description>There is a lot of potentiality in the notion of recursive publics:  certainly users who merely read a connexions module (or people who just use free software, rather than modifying it) are by all means contributing to the actuality of a recursive public.  What constitutes the core of this participation is the sense, at bottom, that one could always change, extend, modify, or re-use this material, software and infrastructure, if the world changed around us. Or if Connexions decided to become evil and corporate, we could take our learning materials with us and set up Connexions2, or some other project.

What&#039;s more, the ability to apprentice and to develop the elite skills necessary to carry forward such a project is also supposed to be open to anyone (i.e. there is no authority that decides who will be the FOSS elite or the Connexions elite), so this lay reading public has the option to become expert if they choose.  Contrast that with science, or newspaper-writing/reading or other activities constituted around closed groups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a lot of potentiality in the notion of recursive publics:  certainly users who merely read a connexions module (or people who just use free software, rather than modifying it) are by all means contributing to the actuality of a recursive public.  What constitutes the core of this participation is the sense, at bottom, that one could always change, extend, modify, or re-use this material, software and infrastructure, if the world changed around us. Or if Connexions decided to become evil and corporate, we could take our learning materials with us and set up Connexions2, or some other project.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s more, the ability to apprentice and to develop the elite skills necessary to carry forward such a project is also supposed to be open to anyone (i.e. there is no authority that decides who will be the FOSS elite or the Connexions elite), so this lay reading public has the option to become expert if they choose.  Contrast that with science, or newspaper-writing/reading or other activities constituted around closed groups.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5313</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5313</guid>
		<description>In a technical sense, or technical-religious sense, FOSS contributors see their work as part of the infrastructure that everyone uses, whether or not they notice (the internet runs on free software).  In that sense, this spectral user group is a public unaware of its own salvation by FOSS, and that is consistent with the predominantly protestant, calvinist especially, style of thinking among FOSS programmers--that you can be saved without knowing it.  

Wikipedia, or better Facebook and MySpace, are examples that might stand up better to this question, because they are not really that elite... and yet only Wikipedia would qualify as Free Software in my terms.  So yes, the public is divided here, and will continue to be so... but it isn&#039;t because of technical access or elitism  per se a la Robins or Webster... it is because of technical and legal choices that were made by Facebook and MySpace... or to put it differently, there are simply more and less public forms of technology, and it matters when people choose to participate in a less public one, even if they don&#039;t personally recognize that they do so.

Lippman&#039;s phantom public was something else though:  it was a public that elites claimed existed, in order to justify their actions, but which Lippman argued did not and could never exist.  The so-called omnicompetent individual who is a member of The Public and participates in all political decision making is a fantasy.  The alternative is multiple publics, each addressing its own issues... which is where Dewey took this debate. So in terms of FOSS, its similarly dangerous to assume that everyone who participates in a recursive public needs to be a programmer with wicked hacking skills... that&#039;s a repeat of the myth of the omnicompetent citizen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a technical sense, or technical-religious sense, FOSS contributors see their work as part of the infrastructure that everyone uses, whether or not they notice (the internet runs on free software).  In that sense, this spectral user group is a public unaware of its own salvation by FOSS, and that is consistent with the predominantly protestant, calvinist especially, style of thinking among FOSS programmers&#8211;that you can be saved without knowing it.  </p>
<p>Wikipedia, or better Facebook and MySpace, are examples that might stand up better to this question, because they are not really that elite&#8230; and yet only Wikipedia would qualify as Free Software in my terms.  So yes, the public is divided here, and will continue to be so&#8230; but it isn&#8217;t because of technical access or elitism  per se a la Robins or Webster&#8230; it is because of technical and legal choices that were made by Facebook and MySpace&#8230; or to put it differently, there are simply more and less public forms of technology, and it matters when people choose to participate in a less public one, even if they don&#8217;t personally recognize that they do so.</p>
<p>Lippman&#8217;s phantom public was something else though:  it was a public that elites claimed existed, in order to justify their actions, but which Lippman argued did not and could never exist.  The so-called omnicompetent individual who is a member of The Public and participates in all political decision making is a fantasy.  The alternative is multiple publics, each addressing its own issues&#8230; which is where Dewey took this debate. So in terms of FOSS, its similarly dangerous to assume that everyone who participates in a recursive public needs to be a programmer with wicked hacking skills&#8230; that&#8217;s a repeat of the myth of the omnicompetent citizen.</p>
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		<title>By: Bernard Geoghegan</title>
	<atom:link href="http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link></link>
	<description>Discuss.</description>
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		<title>Comments on: Introduction</title>
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	<link></link>
	<description>Discuss.</description>
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		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129402</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 17:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129402</guid>
		<description>Yes, I think the point is that geeks are especially suspicious of attempts by any one entity to create a &quot;level playing field&quot; and see it (perhaps too cynically) as one more strategic move in a game to own standards, systems, platforms, formats, etc.  So the core idea of a recursive public is a system so open, and so recursively modifiable that the game always remains open to new entrants and new plays--and that it is this very openness that levels the playing field, not any one entity or any one rationality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I think the point is that geeks are especially suspicious of attempts by any one entity to create a &#8220;level playing field&#8221; and see it (perhaps too cynically) as one more strategic move in a game to own standards, systems, platforms, formats, etc.  So the core idea of a recursive public is a system so open, and so recursively modifiable that the game always remains open to new entrants and new plays&#8211;and that it is this very openness that levels the playing field, not any one entity or any one rationality.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Kahn Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129130</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Kahn Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:59:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129130</guid>
		<description>i think obsessive archiving is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  While some of it is probably due to &quot;archival hubris&quot;, i think that much of it is actually due to a pervasive fear of screwups, fear of forgetfulness, and in search of the goals of modifiability and flexibility that you outline elsewhere in the book.

In particular, during discussions, arguments and planning processes, there&#039;s a sense of concern that any given decision made today may turn out to be the wrong decision, or may in the future be made in a different way.  Obsessive archiving mitigates the possibility that future decision-makers will be perplexed by the outcome of the process, and will remind them (if they care to read) of the rationales we had in mind when we were coming to terms with the decision we were making.  If the context of the decision turns out to be no longer relevant in 5 years, then reversing the outcome of the decision is no big deal.  But if there were subtle nuances in rationale that are still relevant, an attempt to reverse the outcome can be more easily rebutted.

Also, obsessive archiving (along with an explicit or implicit faith in the power of mechanized search) is seen as a time-saver -- if we can have the discussion with each other in the public, then no one needs to spend any extra time writing or fact-checking minutes, summaries, etc.

This doesn&#039;t work out all the time, so summaries are still needed for some monstrous discussions, or particularly high-bandwidth topics (see, for example, &lt;a href=&quot;http://lwn.net/Kernel/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jon Corbet&#039;s ongoing summaries&lt;/a&gt; of Linux kernel development).  But for smaller discussions and projects, the original archives themselves are a more effective use of limited collaborator hours than preparing and publishing synopses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think obsessive archiving is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  While some of it is probably due to &#8220;archival hubris&#8221;, i think that much of it is actually due to a pervasive fear of screwups, fear of forgetfulness, and in search of the goals of modifiability and flexibility that you outline elsewhere in the book.</p>
<p>In particular, during discussions, arguments and planning processes, there&#8217;s a sense of concern that any given decision made today may turn out to be the wrong decision, or may in the future be made in a different way.  Obsessive archiving mitigates the possibility that future decision-makers will be perplexed by the outcome of the process, and will remind them (if they care to read) of the rationales we had in mind when we were coming to terms with the decision we were making.  If the context of the decision turns out to be no longer relevant in 5 years, then reversing the outcome of the decision is no big deal.  But if there were subtle nuances in rationale that are still relevant, an attempt to reverse the outcome can be more easily rebutted.</p>
<p>Also, obsessive archiving (along with an explicit or implicit faith in the power of mechanized search) is seen as a time-saver &#8212; if we can have the discussion with each other in the public, then no one needs to spend any extra time writing or fact-checking minutes, summaries, etc.</p>
<p>This doesn&#8217;t work out all the time, so summaries are still needed for some monstrous discussions, or particularly high-bandwidth topics (see, for example, <a href="http://lwn.net/Kernel/" rel="nofollow">Jon Corbet&#8217;s ongoing summaries</a> of Linux kernel development).  But for smaller discussions and projects, the original archives themselves are a more effective use of limited collaborator hours than preparing and publishing synopses.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel Kahn Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129124</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Kahn Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129124</guid>
		<description>nit picking: &quot;level it to their advantage&quot; (used twice in this paragraph) doesn&#039;t make a lot of sense -- to level a playing field is to remove any intrinsic advantage for one player or another.  it seems jarring, unless the point you&#039;re trying to make here is that the act of leveling itself is intrinsically impossible, or that hidden biases are implicit in any act of &quot;leveling&quot;.

&quot;bias it to their advantage&quot; might be better, or maybe &quot;tilt it to their advantage&quot; (which keeps the metaphor alive a bit longer).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nit picking: &#8220;level it to their advantage&#8221; (used twice in this paragraph) doesn&#8217;t make a lot of sense &#8212; to level a playing field is to remove any intrinsic advantage for one player or another.  it seems jarring, unless the point you&#8217;re trying to make here is that the act of leveling itself is intrinsically impossible, or that hidden biases are implicit in any act of &#8220;leveling&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;bias it to their advantage&#8221; might be better, or maybe &#8220;tilt it to their advantage&#8221; (which keeps the metaphor alive a bit longer).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-21315</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-21315</guid>
		<description>@jennifer

Absolutely.  Second Life and fan fiction are both great examples to explore in this context.  With second life, the key difference is that Linden Labs has absolute authority over what happens there... but beyond that, certain elements of free software practices are central to second lifers understanding of what they create.

Fan fiction is an even better example because of the way it liberates not just texts or material copies, but characters, plots, situations.  Fan-subbing in anime i another good example.  Here the key difference is the quasi-legality of it.  Free software has figured out a way to create a legal commons that opts out of corporate provision of software... fan fiction and fan subbing exist in uneasy relation to that same corporate provision: they need it to feed their understanding and inhabitation of their worlds, but they deconstruct it and make it public at the same time.  I hope it&#039;s clear that I think using free software as a template for asking about the practices involved in either case is a way of trying to make more precise what makes a public, and what makes publics valuable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@jennifer</p>
<p>Absolutely.  Second Life and fan fiction are both great examples to explore in this context.  With second life, the key difference is that Linden Labs has absolute authority over what happens there&#8230; but beyond that, certain elements of free software practices are central to second lifers understanding of what they create.</p>
<p>Fan fiction is an even better example because of the way it liberates not just texts or material copies, but characters, plots, situations.  Fan-subbing in anime i another good example.  Here the key difference is the quasi-legality of it.  Free software has figured out a way to create a legal commons that opts out of corporate provision of software&#8230; fan fiction and fan subbing exist in uneasy relation to that same corporate provision: they need it to feed their understanding and inhabitation of their worlds, but they deconstruct it and make it public at the same time.  I hope it&#8217;s clear that I think using free software as a template for asking about the practices involved in either case is a way of trying to make more precise what makes a public, and what makes publics valuable.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jennifer Terrell</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-21310</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer Terrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 22:18:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-21310</guid>
		<description>Hello Dr. Kelty,

I am thinking about how one would apply your concept of recursive public to other groups who may, like free software geeks, be difficult to frame. A key concept for recursive public that you set forth is the generation and modification of infrastructure of the group. To what extent can one be liberal with concepts of infrastructure? Thinking about modifiability reminds me of many groups who play with the world they are in, be it a literary world or a virtual world such as second life. Building infrastructure for free software geeks at times literally means coding their world, but can we say that fans who write fan fiction are also crafting their world through the modification of literary canon? Are residents of second life who work to build virtual products and building structures and thus create the second life landscape also maintaining their infrastructure? In this sense can we apply the recursive public framework to these groups as well?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Dr. Kelty,</p>
<p>I am thinking about how one would apply your concept of recursive public to other groups who may, like free software geeks, be difficult to frame. A key concept for recursive public that you set forth is the generation and modification of infrastructure of the group. To what extent can one be liberal with concepts of infrastructure? Thinking about modifiability reminds me of many groups who play with the world they are in, be it a literary world or a virtual world such as second life. Building infrastructure for free software geeks at times literally means coding their world, but can we say that fans who write fan fiction are also crafting their world through the modification of literary canon? Are residents of second life who work to build virtual products and building structures and thus create the second life landscape also maintaining their infrastructure? In this sense can we apply the recursive public framework to these groups as well?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Zbigniew Lukasiak</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-11431</link>
		<dc:creator>Zbigniew Lukasiak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 12:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-11431</guid>
		<description>Maybe it&#039;s nothing important but in the spirit of Open Source I would like to remark that at paragraph 34 page 14 - the word &#039;perl&#039; (which in this version means the interpreter installed at a particular machine) should be &#039;Perl&#039; (which means the Perl programming language). See: http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe it&#8217;s nothing important but in the spirit of Open Source I would like to remark that at paragraph 34 page 14 &#8211; the word &#8216;perl&#8217; (which in this version means the interpreter installed at a particular machine) should be &#8216;Perl&#8217; (which means the Perl programming language). See: <a href="http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f" rel="nofollow">http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5315</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5315</guid>
		<description>@Javier
I wouldn&#039;t necessarily include downloading TV programs unless it involved freely licensed TV programs (like DemocracyTV/Miro).  Otherwise the reality is that though I agree with you ethically, it is still illegal to download and watch the TV programs.

What&#039;s worse though is that it is illegal for you to do something productive and valuable, like add english subtitles to a spanish program and re-distribute it.  Free Culture advocates would argue that this kind of consumer participation should not be criminalized, and I would agree.  

re: culture... not sure I can answer your question here.  I tried to avoid using the term as much as possible, but when I do use it, I use it to refer to the former definition you give--that of a totality of economic, behavioral, technical, aesthetic and so on, rules and norms that produce a sense of affinity or kinship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Javier<br />
I wouldn&#8217;t necessarily include downloading TV programs unless it involved freely licensed TV programs (like DemocracyTV/Miro).  Otherwise the reality is that though I agree with you ethically, it is still illegal to download and watch the TV programs.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s worse though is that it is illegal for you to do something productive and valuable, like add english subtitles to a spanish program and re-distribute it.  Free Culture advocates would argue that this kind of consumer participation should not be criminalized, and I would agree.  </p>
<p>re: culture&#8230; not sure I can answer your question here.  I tried to avoid using the term as much as possible, but when I do use it, I use it to refer to the former definition you give&#8211;that of a totality of economic, behavioral, technical, aesthetic and so on, rules and norms that produce a sense of affinity or kinship.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5314</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5314</guid>
		<description>There is a lot of potentiality in the notion of recursive publics:  certainly users who merely read a connexions module (or people who just use free software, rather than modifying it) are by all means contributing to the actuality of a recursive public.  What constitutes the core of this participation is the sense, at bottom, that one could always change, extend, modify, or re-use this material, software and infrastructure, if the world changed around us. Or if Connexions decided to become evil and corporate, we could take our learning materials with us and set up Connexions2, or some other project.

What&#039;s more, the ability to apprentice and to develop the elite skills necessary to carry forward such a project is also supposed to be open to anyone (i.e. there is no authority that decides who will be the FOSS elite or the Connexions elite), so this lay reading public has the option to become expert if they choose.  Contrast that with science, or newspaper-writing/reading or other activities constituted around closed groups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a lot of potentiality in the notion of recursive publics:  certainly users who merely read a connexions module (or people who just use free software, rather than modifying it) are by all means contributing to the actuality of a recursive public.  What constitutes the core of this participation is the sense, at bottom, that one could always change, extend, modify, or re-use this material, software and infrastructure, if the world changed around us. Or if Connexions decided to become evil and corporate, we could take our learning materials with us and set up Connexions2, or some other project.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s more, the ability to apprentice and to develop the elite skills necessary to carry forward such a project is also supposed to be open to anyone (i.e. there is no authority that decides who will be the FOSS elite or the Connexions elite), so this lay reading public has the option to become expert if they choose.  Contrast that with science, or newspaper-writing/reading or other activities constituted around closed groups.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5313</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5313</guid>
		<description>In a technical sense, or technical-religious sense, FOSS contributors see their work as part of the infrastructure that everyone uses, whether or not they notice (the internet runs on free software).  In that sense, this spectral user group is a public unaware of its own salvation by FOSS, and that is consistent with the predominantly protestant, calvinist especially, style of thinking among FOSS programmers--that you can be saved without knowing it.  

Wikipedia, or better Facebook and MySpace, are examples that might stand up better to this question, because they are not really that elite... and yet only Wikipedia would qualify as Free Software in my terms.  So yes, the public is divided here, and will continue to be so... but it isn&#039;t because of technical access or elitism  per se a la Robins or Webster... it is because of technical and legal choices that were made by Facebook and MySpace... or to put it differently, there are simply more and less public forms of technology, and it matters when people choose to participate in a less public one, even if they don&#039;t personally recognize that they do so.

Lippman&#039;s phantom public was something else though:  it was a public that elites claimed existed, in order to justify their actions, but which Lippman argued did not and could never exist.  The so-called omnicompetent individual who is a member of The Public and participates in all political decision making is a fantasy.  The alternative is multiple publics, each addressing its own issues... which is where Dewey took this debate. So in terms of FOSS, its similarly dangerous to assume that everyone who participates in a recursive public needs to be a programmer with wicked hacking skills... that&#039;s a repeat of the myth of the omnicompetent citizen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a technical sense, or technical-religious sense, FOSS contributors see their work as part of the infrastructure that everyone uses, whether or not they notice (the internet runs on free software).  In that sense, this spectral user group is a public unaware of its own salvation by FOSS, and that is consistent with the predominantly protestant, calvinist especially, style of thinking among FOSS programmers&#8211;that you can be saved without knowing it.  </p>
<p>Wikipedia, or better Facebook and MySpace, are examples that might stand up better to this question, because they are not really that elite&#8230; and yet only Wikipedia would qualify as Free Software in my terms.  So yes, the public is divided here, and will continue to be so&#8230; but it isn&#8217;t because of technical access or elitism  per se a la Robins or Webster&#8230; it is because of technical and legal choices that were made by Facebook and MySpace&#8230; or to put it differently, there are simply more and less public forms of technology, and it matters when people choose to participate in a less public one, even if they don&#8217;t personally recognize that they do so.</p>
<p>Lippman&#8217;s phantom public was something else though:  it was a public that elites claimed existed, in order to justify their actions, but which Lippman argued did not and could never exist.  The so-called omnicompetent individual who is a member of The Public and participates in all political decision making is a fantasy.  The alternative is multiple publics, each addressing its own issues&#8230; which is where Dewey took this debate. So in terms of FOSS, its similarly dangerous to assume that everyone who participates in a recursive public needs to be a programmer with wicked hacking skills&#8230; that&#8217;s a repeat of the myth of the omnicompetent citizen.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Bernard Geoghegan</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129402</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 17:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129402</guid>
		<description>Yes, I think the point is that geeks are especially suspicious of attempts by any one entity to create a &quot;level playing field&quot; and see it (perhaps too cynically) as one more strategic move in a game to own standards, systems, platforms, formats, etc.  So the core idea of a recursive public is a system so open, and so recursively modifiable that the game always remains open to new entrants and new plays--and that it is this very openness that levels the playing field, not any one entity or any one rationality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I think the point is that geeks are especially suspicious of attempts by any one entity to create a &#8220;level playing field&#8221; and see it (perhaps too cynically) as one more strategic move in a game to own standards, systems, platforms, formats, etc.  So the core idea of a recursive public is a system so open, and so recursively modifiable that the game always remains open to new entrants and new plays&#8211;and that it is this very openness that levels the playing field, not any one entity or any one rationality.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comments on: Introduction</title>
	<atom:link href="http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link></link>
	<description>Discuss.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 13:27:10 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129402</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 17:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129402</guid>
		<description>Yes, I think the point is that geeks are especially suspicious of attempts by any one entity to create a &quot;level playing field&quot; and see it (perhaps too cynically) as one more strategic move in a game to own standards, systems, platforms, formats, etc.  So the core idea of a recursive public is a system so open, and so recursively modifiable that the game always remains open to new entrants and new plays--and that it is this very openness that levels the playing field, not any one entity or any one rationality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I think the point is that geeks are especially suspicious of attempts by any one entity to create a &#8220;level playing field&#8221; and see it (perhaps too cynically) as one more strategic move in a game to own standards, systems, platforms, formats, etc.  So the core idea of a recursive public is a system so open, and so recursively modifiable that the game always remains open to new entrants and new plays&#8211;and that it is this very openness that levels the playing field, not any one entity or any one rationality.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel Kahn Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129130</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Kahn Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:59:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129130</guid>
		<description>i think obsessive archiving is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  While some of it is probably due to &quot;archival hubris&quot;, i think that much of it is actually due to a pervasive fear of screwups, fear of forgetfulness, and in search of the goals of modifiability and flexibility that you outline elsewhere in the book.

In particular, during discussions, arguments and planning processes, there&#039;s a sense of concern that any given decision made today may turn out to be the wrong decision, or may in the future be made in a different way.  Obsessive archiving mitigates the possibility that future decision-makers will be perplexed by the outcome of the process, and will remind them (if they care to read) of the rationales we had in mind when we were coming to terms with the decision we were making.  If the context of the decision turns out to be no longer relevant in 5 years, then reversing the outcome of the decision is no big deal.  But if there were subtle nuances in rationale that are still relevant, an attempt to reverse the outcome can be more easily rebutted.

Also, obsessive archiving (along with an explicit or implicit faith in the power of mechanized search) is seen as a time-saver -- if we can have the discussion with each other in the public, then no one needs to spend any extra time writing or fact-checking minutes, summaries, etc.

This doesn&#039;t work out all the time, so summaries are still needed for some monstrous discussions, or particularly high-bandwidth topics (see, for example, &lt;a href=&quot;http://lwn.net/Kernel/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jon Corbet&#039;s ongoing summaries&lt;/a&gt; of Linux kernel development).  But for smaller discussions and projects, the original archives themselves are a more effective use of limited collaborator hours than preparing and publishing synopses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think obsessive archiving is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  While some of it is probably due to &#8220;archival hubris&#8221;, i think that much of it is actually due to a pervasive fear of screwups, fear of forgetfulness, and in search of the goals of modifiability and flexibility that you outline elsewhere in the book.</p>
<p>In particular, during discussions, arguments and planning processes, there&#8217;s a sense of concern that any given decision made today may turn out to be the wrong decision, or may in the future be made in a different way.  Obsessive archiving mitigates the possibility that future decision-makers will be perplexed by the outcome of the process, and will remind them (if they care to read) of the rationales we had in mind when we were coming to terms with the decision we were making.  If the context of the decision turns out to be no longer relevant in 5 years, then reversing the outcome of the decision is no big deal.  But if there were subtle nuances in rationale that are still relevant, an attempt to reverse the outcome can be more easily rebutted.</p>
<p>Also, obsessive archiving (along with an explicit or implicit faith in the power of mechanized search) is seen as a time-saver &#8212; if we can have the discussion with each other in the public, then no one needs to spend any extra time writing or fact-checking minutes, summaries, etc.</p>
<p>This doesn&#8217;t work out all the time, so summaries are still needed for some monstrous discussions, or particularly high-bandwidth topics (see, for example, <a href="http://lwn.net/Kernel/" rel="nofollow">Jon Corbet&#8217;s ongoing summaries</a> of Linux kernel development).  But for smaller discussions and projects, the original archives themselves are a more effective use of limited collaborator hours than preparing and publishing synopses.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel Kahn Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129124</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Kahn Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129124</guid>
		<description>nit picking: &quot;level it to their advantage&quot; (used twice in this paragraph) doesn&#039;t make a lot of sense -- to level a playing field is to remove any intrinsic advantage for one player or another.  it seems jarring, unless the point you&#039;re trying to make here is that the act of leveling itself is intrinsically impossible, or that hidden biases are implicit in any act of &quot;leveling&quot;.

&quot;bias it to their advantage&quot; might be better, or maybe &quot;tilt it to their advantage&quot; (which keeps the metaphor alive a bit longer).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nit picking: &#8220;level it to their advantage&#8221; (used twice in this paragraph) doesn&#8217;t make a lot of sense &#8212; to level a playing field is to remove any intrinsic advantage for one player or another.  it seems jarring, unless the point you&#8217;re trying to make here is that the act of leveling itself is intrinsically impossible, or that hidden biases are implicit in any act of &#8220;leveling&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;bias it to their advantage&#8221; might be better, or maybe &#8220;tilt it to their advantage&#8221; (which keeps the metaphor alive a bit longer).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-21315</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-21315</guid>
		<description>@jennifer

Absolutely.  Second Life and fan fiction are both great examples to explore in this context.  With second life, the key difference is that Linden Labs has absolute authority over what happens there... but beyond that, certain elements of free software practices are central to second lifers understanding of what they create.

Fan fiction is an even better example because of the way it liberates not just texts or material copies, but characters, plots, situations.  Fan-subbing in anime i another good example.  Here the key difference is the quasi-legality of it.  Free software has figured out a way to create a legal commons that opts out of corporate provision of software... fan fiction and fan subbing exist in uneasy relation to that same corporate provision: they need it to feed their understanding and inhabitation of their worlds, but they deconstruct it and make it public at the same time.  I hope it&#039;s clear that I think using free software as a template for asking about the practices involved in either case is a way of trying to make more precise what makes a public, and what makes publics valuable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@jennifer</p>
<p>Absolutely.  Second Life and fan fiction are both great examples to explore in this context.  With second life, the key difference is that Linden Labs has absolute authority over what happens there&#8230; but beyond that, certain elements of free software practices are central to second lifers understanding of what they create.</p>
<p>Fan fiction is an even better example because of the way it liberates not just texts or material copies, but characters, plots, situations.  Fan-subbing in anime i another good example.  Here the key difference is the quasi-legality of it.  Free software has figured out a way to create a legal commons that opts out of corporate provision of software&#8230; fan fiction and fan subbing exist in uneasy relation to that same corporate provision: they need it to feed their understanding and inhabitation of their worlds, but they deconstruct it and make it public at the same time.  I hope it&#8217;s clear that I think using free software as a template for asking about the practices involved in either case is a way of trying to make more precise what makes a public, and what makes publics valuable.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jennifer Terrell</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-21310</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer Terrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 22:18:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-21310</guid>
		<description>Hello Dr. Kelty,

I am thinking about how one would apply your concept of recursive public to other groups who may, like free software geeks, be difficult to frame. A key concept for recursive public that you set forth is the generation and modification of infrastructure of the group. To what extent can one be liberal with concepts of infrastructure? Thinking about modifiability reminds me of many groups who play with the world they are in, be it a literary world or a virtual world such as second life. Building infrastructure for free software geeks at times literally means coding their world, but can we say that fans who write fan fiction are also crafting their world through the modification of literary canon? Are residents of second life who work to build virtual products and building structures and thus create the second life landscape also maintaining their infrastructure? In this sense can we apply the recursive public framework to these groups as well?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Dr. Kelty,</p>
<p>I am thinking about how one would apply your concept of recursive public to other groups who may, like free software geeks, be difficult to frame. A key concept for recursive public that you set forth is the generation and modification of infrastructure of the group. To what extent can one be liberal with concepts of infrastructure? Thinking about modifiability reminds me of many groups who play with the world they are in, be it a literary world or a virtual world such as second life. Building infrastructure for free software geeks at times literally means coding their world, but can we say that fans who write fan fiction are also crafting their world through the modification of literary canon? Are residents of second life who work to build virtual products and building structures and thus create the second life landscape also maintaining their infrastructure? In this sense can we apply the recursive public framework to these groups as well?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Zbigniew Lukasiak</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-11431</link>
		<dc:creator>Zbigniew Lukasiak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 12:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-11431</guid>
		<description>Maybe it&#039;s nothing important but in the spirit of Open Source I would like to remark that at paragraph 34 page 14 - the word &#039;perl&#039; (which in this version means the interpreter installed at a particular machine) should be &#039;Perl&#039; (which means the Perl programming language). See: http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe it&#8217;s nothing important but in the spirit of Open Source I would like to remark that at paragraph 34 page 14 &#8211; the word &#8216;perl&#8217; (which in this version means the interpreter installed at a particular machine) should be &#8216;Perl&#8217; (which means the Perl programming language). See: <a href="http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f" rel="nofollow">http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f</a></p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5315</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5315</guid>
		<description>@Javier
I wouldn&#039;t necessarily include downloading TV programs unless it involved freely licensed TV programs (like DemocracyTV/Miro).  Otherwise the reality is that though I agree with you ethically, it is still illegal to download and watch the TV programs.

What&#039;s worse though is that it is illegal for you to do something productive and valuable, like add english subtitles to a spanish program and re-distribute it.  Free Culture advocates would argue that this kind of consumer participation should not be criminalized, and I would agree.  

re: culture... not sure I can answer your question here.  I tried to avoid using the term as much as possible, but when I do use it, I use it to refer to the former definition you give--that of a totality of economic, behavioral, technical, aesthetic and so on, rules and norms that produce a sense of affinity or kinship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Javier<br />
I wouldn&#8217;t necessarily include downloading TV programs unless it involved freely licensed TV programs (like DemocracyTV/Miro).  Otherwise the reality is that though I agree with you ethically, it is still illegal to download and watch the TV programs.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s worse though is that it is illegal for you to do something productive and valuable, like add english subtitles to a spanish program and re-distribute it.  Free Culture advocates would argue that this kind of consumer participation should not be criminalized, and I would agree.  </p>
<p>re: culture&#8230; not sure I can answer your question here.  I tried to avoid using the term as much as possible, but when I do use it, I use it to refer to the former definition you give&#8211;that of a totality of economic, behavioral, technical, aesthetic and so on, rules and norms that produce a sense of affinity or kinship.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5314</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5314</guid>
		<description>There is a lot of potentiality in the notion of recursive publics:  certainly users who merely read a connexions module (or people who just use free software, rather than modifying it) are by all means contributing to the actuality of a recursive public.  What constitutes the core of this participation is the sense, at bottom, that one could always change, extend, modify, or re-use this material, software and infrastructure, if the world changed around us. Or if Connexions decided to become evil and corporate, we could take our learning materials with us and set up Connexions2, or some other project.

What&#039;s more, the ability to apprentice and to develop the elite skills necessary to carry forward such a project is also supposed to be open to anyone (i.e. there is no authority that decides who will be the FOSS elite or the Connexions elite), so this lay reading public has the option to become expert if they choose.  Contrast that with science, or newspaper-writing/reading or other activities constituted around closed groups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a lot of potentiality in the notion of recursive publics:  certainly users who merely read a connexions module (or people who just use free software, rather than modifying it) are by all means contributing to the actuality of a recursive public.  What constitutes the core of this participation is the sense, at bottom, that one could always change, extend, modify, or re-use this material, software and infrastructure, if the world changed around us. Or if Connexions decided to become evil and corporate, we could take our learning materials with us and set up Connexions2, or some other project.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s more, the ability to apprentice and to develop the elite skills necessary to carry forward such a project is also supposed to be open to anyone (i.e. there is no authority that decides who will be the FOSS elite or the Connexions elite), so this lay reading public has the option to become expert if they choose.  Contrast that with science, or newspaper-writing/reading or other activities constituted around closed groups.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5313</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5313</guid>
		<description>In a technical sense, or technical-religious sense, FOSS contributors see their work as part of the infrastructure that everyone uses, whether or not they notice (the internet runs on free software).  In that sense, this spectral user group is a public unaware of its own salvation by FOSS, and that is consistent with the predominantly protestant, calvinist especially, style of thinking among FOSS programmers--that you can be saved without knowing it.  

Wikipedia, or better Facebook and MySpace, are examples that might stand up better to this question, because they are not really that elite... and yet only Wikipedia would qualify as Free Software in my terms.  So yes, the public is divided here, and will continue to be so... but it isn&#039;t because of technical access or elitism  per se a la Robins or Webster... it is because of technical and legal choices that were made by Facebook and MySpace... or to put it differently, there are simply more and less public forms of technology, and it matters when people choose to participate in a less public one, even if they don&#039;t personally recognize that they do so.

Lippman&#039;s phantom public was something else though:  it was a public that elites claimed existed, in order to justify their actions, but which Lippman argued did not and could never exist.  The so-called omnicompetent individual who is a member of The Public and participates in all political decision making is a fantasy.  The alternative is multiple publics, each addressing its own issues... which is where Dewey took this debate. So in terms of FOSS, its similarly dangerous to assume that everyone who participates in a recursive public needs to be a programmer with wicked hacking skills... that&#039;s a repeat of the myth of the omnicompetent citizen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a technical sense, or technical-religious sense, FOSS contributors see their work as part of the infrastructure that everyone uses, whether or not they notice (the internet runs on free software).  In that sense, this spectral user group is a public unaware of its own salvation by FOSS, and that is consistent with the predominantly protestant, calvinist especially, style of thinking among FOSS programmers&#8211;that you can be saved without knowing it.  </p>
<p>Wikipedia, or better Facebook and MySpace, are examples that might stand up better to this question, because they are not really that elite&#8230; and yet only Wikipedia would qualify as Free Software in my terms.  So yes, the public is divided here, and will continue to be so&#8230; but it isn&#8217;t because of technical access or elitism  per se a la Robins or Webster&#8230; it is because of technical and legal choices that were made by Facebook and MySpace&#8230; or to put it differently, there are simply more and less public forms of technology, and it matters when people choose to participate in a less public one, even if they don&#8217;t personally recognize that they do so.</p>
<p>Lippman&#8217;s phantom public was something else though:  it was a public that elites claimed existed, in order to justify their actions, but which Lippman argued did not and could never exist.  The so-called omnicompetent individual who is a member of The Public and participates in all political decision making is a fantasy.  The alternative is multiple publics, each addressing its own issues&#8230; which is where Dewey took this debate. So in terms of FOSS, its similarly dangerous to assume that everyone who participates in a recursive public needs to be a programmer with wicked hacking skills&#8230; that&#8217;s a repeat of the myth of the omnicompetent citizen.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Bernard Geoghegan</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129130</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Kahn Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:59:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129130</guid>
		<description>i think obsessive archiving is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  While some of it is probably due to &quot;archival hubris&quot;, i think that much of it is actually due to a pervasive fear of screwups, fear of forgetfulness, and in search of the goals of modifiability and flexibility that you outline elsewhere in the book.

In particular, during discussions, arguments and planning processes, there&#039;s a sense of concern that any given decision made today may turn out to be the wrong decision, or may in the future be made in a different way.  Obsessive archiving mitigates the possibility that future decision-makers will be perplexed by the outcome of the process, and will remind them (if they care to read) of the rationales we had in mind when we were coming to terms with the decision we were making.  If the context of the decision turns out to be no longer relevant in 5 years, then reversing the outcome of the decision is no big deal.  But if there were subtle nuances in rationale that are still relevant, an attempt to reverse the outcome can be more easily rebutted.

Also, obsessive archiving (along with an explicit or implicit faith in the power of mechanized search) is seen as a time-saver -- if we can have the discussion with each other in the public, then no one needs to spend any extra time writing or fact-checking minutes, summaries, etc.

This doesn&#039;t work out all the time, so summaries are still needed for some monstrous discussions, or particularly high-bandwidth topics (see, for example, &lt;a href=&quot;http://lwn.net/Kernel/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jon Corbet&#039;s ongoing summaries&lt;/a&gt; of Linux kernel development).  But for smaller discussions and projects, the original archives themselves are a more effective use of limited collaborator hours than preparing and publishing synopses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think obsessive archiving is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  While some of it is probably due to &#8220;archival hubris&#8221;, i think that much of it is actually due to a pervasive fear of screwups, fear of forgetfulness, and in search of the goals of modifiability and flexibility that you outline elsewhere in the book.</p>
<p>In particular, during discussions, arguments and planning processes, there&#8217;s a sense of concern that any given decision made today may turn out to be the wrong decision, or may in the future be made in a different way.  Obsessive archiving mitigates the possibility that future decision-makers will be perplexed by the outcome of the process, and will remind them (if they care to read) of the rationales we had in mind when we were coming to terms with the decision we were making.  If the context of the decision turns out to be no longer relevant in 5 years, then reversing the outcome of the decision is no big deal.  But if there were subtle nuances in rationale that are still relevant, an attempt to reverse the outcome can be more easily rebutted.</p>
<p>Also, obsessive archiving (along with an explicit or implicit faith in the power of mechanized search) is seen as a time-saver &#8212; if we can have the discussion with each other in the public, then no one needs to spend any extra time writing or fact-checking minutes, summaries, etc.</p>
<p>This doesn&#8217;t work out all the time, so summaries are still needed for some monstrous discussions, or particularly high-bandwidth topics (see, for example, <a href="http://lwn.net/Kernel/" rel="nofollow">Jon Corbet&#8217;s ongoing summaries</a> of Linux kernel development).  But for smaller discussions and projects, the original archives themselves are a more effective use of limited collaborator hours than preparing and publishing synopses.</p>
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		<title>Comments on: Introduction</title>
	<atom:link href="http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link></link>
	<description>Discuss.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 13:27:10 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129402</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 17:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129402</guid>
		<description>Yes, I think the point is that geeks are especially suspicious of attempts by any one entity to create a &quot;level playing field&quot; and see it (perhaps too cynically) as one more strategic move in a game to own standards, systems, platforms, formats, etc.  So the core idea of a recursive public is a system so open, and so recursively modifiable that the game always remains open to new entrants and new plays--and that it is this very openness that levels the playing field, not any one entity or any one rationality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I think the point is that geeks are especially suspicious of attempts by any one entity to create a &#8220;level playing field&#8221; and see it (perhaps too cynically) as one more strategic move in a game to own standards, systems, platforms, formats, etc.  So the core idea of a recursive public is a system so open, and so recursively modifiable that the game always remains open to new entrants and new plays&#8211;and that it is this very openness that levels the playing field, not any one entity or any one rationality.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Kahn Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129130</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Kahn Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:59:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129130</guid>
		<description>i think obsessive archiving is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  While some of it is probably due to &quot;archival hubris&quot;, i think that much of it is actually due to a pervasive fear of screwups, fear of forgetfulness, and in search of the goals of modifiability and flexibility that you outline elsewhere in the book.

In particular, during discussions, arguments and planning processes, there&#039;s a sense of concern that any given decision made today may turn out to be the wrong decision, or may in the future be made in a different way.  Obsessive archiving mitigates the possibility that future decision-makers will be perplexed by the outcome of the process, and will remind them (if they care to read) of the rationales we had in mind when we were coming to terms with the decision we were making.  If the context of the decision turns out to be no longer relevant in 5 years, then reversing the outcome of the decision is no big deal.  But if there were subtle nuances in rationale that are still relevant, an attempt to reverse the outcome can be more easily rebutted.

Also, obsessive archiving (along with an explicit or implicit faith in the power of mechanized search) is seen as a time-saver -- if we can have the discussion with each other in the public, then no one needs to spend any extra time writing or fact-checking minutes, summaries, etc.

This doesn&#039;t work out all the time, so summaries are still needed for some monstrous discussions, or particularly high-bandwidth topics (see, for example, &lt;a href=&quot;http://lwn.net/Kernel/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jon Corbet&#039;s ongoing summaries&lt;/a&gt; of Linux kernel development).  But for smaller discussions and projects, the original archives themselves are a more effective use of limited collaborator hours than preparing and publishing synopses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think obsessive archiving is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  While some of it is probably due to &#8220;archival hubris&#8221;, i think that much of it is actually due to a pervasive fear of screwups, fear of forgetfulness, and in search of the goals of modifiability and flexibility that you outline elsewhere in the book.</p>
<p>In particular, during discussions, arguments and planning processes, there&#8217;s a sense of concern that any given decision made today may turn out to be the wrong decision, or may in the future be made in a different way.  Obsessive archiving mitigates the possibility that future decision-makers will be perplexed by the outcome of the process, and will remind them (if they care to read) of the rationales we had in mind when we were coming to terms with the decision we were making.  If the context of the decision turns out to be no longer relevant in 5 years, then reversing the outcome of the decision is no big deal.  But if there were subtle nuances in rationale that are still relevant, an attempt to reverse the outcome can be more easily rebutted.</p>
<p>Also, obsessive archiving (along with an explicit or implicit faith in the power of mechanized search) is seen as a time-saver &#8212; if we can have the discussion with each other in the public, then no one needs to spend any extra time writing or fact-checking minutes, summaries, etc.</p>
<p>This doesn&#8217;t work out all the time, so summaries are still needed for some monstrous discussions, or particularly high-bandwidth topics (see, for example, <a href="http://lwn.net/Kernel/" rel="nofollow">Jon Corbet&#8217;s ongoing summaries</a> of Linux kernel development).  But for smaller discussions and projects, the original archives themselves are a more effective use of limited collaborator hours than preparing and publishing synopses.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel Kahn Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129124</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Kahn Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129124</guid>
		<description>nit picking: &quot;level it to their advantage&quot; (used twice in this paragraph) doesn&#039;t make a lot of sense -- to level a playing field is to remove any intrinsic advantage for one player or another.  it seems jarring, unless the point you&#039;re trying to make here is that the act of leveling itself is intrinsically impossible, or that hidden biases are implicit in any act of &quot;leveling&quot;.

&quot;bias it to their advantage&quot; might be better, or maybe &quot;tilt it to their advantage&quot; (which keeps the metaphor alive a bit longer).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nit picking: &#8220;level it to their advantage&#8221; (used twice in this paragraph) doesn&#8217;t make a lot of sense &#8212; to level a playing field is to remove any intrinsic advantage for one player or another.  it seems jarring, unless the point you&#8217;re trying to make here is that the act of leveling itself is intrinsically impossible, or that hidden biases are implicit in any act of &#8220;leveling&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;bias it to their advantage&#8221; might be better, or maybe &#8220;tilt it to their advantage&#8221; (which keeps the metaphor alive a bit longer).</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-21315</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-21315</guid>
		<description>@jennifer

Absolutely.  Second Life and fan fiction are both great examples to explore in this context.  With second life, the key difference is that Linden Labs has absolute authority over what happens there... but beyond that, certain elements of free software practices are central to second lifers understanding of what they create.

Fan fiction is an even better example because of the way it liberates not just texts or material copies, but characters, plots, situations.  Fan-subbing in anime i another good example.  Here the key difference is the quasi-legality of it.  Free software has figured out a way to create a legal commons that opts out of corporate provision of software... fan fiction and fan subbing exist in uneasy relation to that same corporate provision: they need it to feed their understanding and inhabitation of their worlds, but they deconstruct it and make it public at the same time.  I hope it&#039;s clear that I think using free software as a template for asking about the practices involved in either case is a way of trying to make more precise what makes a public, and what makes publics valuable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@jennifer</p>
<p>Absolutely.  Second Life and fan fiction are both great examples to explore in this context.  With second life, the key difference is that Linden Labs has absolute authority over what happens there&#8230; but beyond that, certain elements of free software practices are central to second lifers understanding of what they create.</p>
<p>Fan fiction is an even better example because of the way it liberates not just texts or material copies, but characters, plots, situations.  Fan-subbing in anime i another good example.  Here the key difference is the quasi-legality of it.  Free software has figured out a way to create a legal commons that opts out of corporate provision of software&#8230; fan fiction and fan subbing exist in uneasy relation to that same corporate provision: they need it to feed their understanding and inhabitation of their worlds, but they deconstruct it and make it public at the same time.  I hope it&#8217;s clear that I think using free software as a template for asking about the practices involved in either case is a way of trying to make more precise what makes a public, and what makes publics valuable.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jennifer Terrell</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-21310</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer Terrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 22:18:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-21310</guid>
		<description>Hello Dr. Kelty,

I am thinking about how one would apply your concept of recursive public to other groups who may, like free software geeks, be difficult to frame. A key concept for recursive public that you set forth is the generation and modification of infrastructure of the group. To what extent can one be liberal with concepts of infrastructure? Thinking about modifiability reminds me of many groups who play with the world they are in, be it a literary world or a virtual world such as second life. Building infrastructure for free software geeks at times literally means coding their world, but can we say that fans who write fan fiction are also crafting their world through the modification of literary canon? Are residents of second life who work to build virtual products and building structures and thus create the second life landscape also maintaining their infrastructure? In this sense can we apply the recursive public framework to these groups as well?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Dr. Kelty,</p>
<p>I am thinking about how one would apply your concept of recursive public to other groups who may, like free software geeks, be difficult to frame. A key concept for recursive public that you set forth is the generation and modification of infrastructure of the group. To what extent can one be liberal with concepts of infrastructure? Thinking about modifiability reminds me of many groups who play with the world they are in, be it a literary world or a virtual world such as second life. Building infrastructure for free software geeks at times literally means coding their world, but can we say that fans who write fan fiction are also crafting their world through the modification of literary canon? Are residents of second life who work to build virtual products and building structures and thus create the second life landscape also maintaining their infrastructure? In this sense can we apply the recursive public framework to these groups as well?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Zbigniew Lukasiak</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-11431</link>
		<dc:creator>Zbigniew Lukasiak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 12:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-11431</guid>
		<description>Maybe it&#039;s nothing important but in the spirit of Open Source I would like to remark that at paragraph 34 page 14 - the word &#039;perl&#039; (which in this version means the interpreter installed at a particular machine) should be &#039;Perl&#039; (which means the Perl programming language). See: http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe it&#8217;s nothing important but in the spirit of Open Source I would like to remark that at paragraph 34 page 14 &#8211; the word &#8216;perl&#8217; (which in this version means the interpreter installed at a particular machine) should be &#8216;Perl&#8217; (which means the Perl programming language). See: <a href="http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f" rel="nofollow">http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f</a></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5315</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5315</guid>
		<description>@Javier
I wouldn&#039;t necessarily include downloading TV programs unless it involved freely licensed TV programs (like DemocracyTV/Miro).  Otherwise the reality is that though I agree with you ethically, it is still illegal to download and watch the TV programs.

What&#039;s worse though is that it is illegal for you to do something productive and valuable, like add english subtitles to a spanish program and re-distribute it.  Free Culture advocates would argue that this kind of consumer participation should not be criminalized, and I would agree.  

re: culture... not sure I can answer your question here.  I tried to avoid using the term as much as possible, but when I do use it, I use it to refer to the former definition you give--that of a totality of economic, behavioral, technical, aesthetic and so on, rules and norms that produce a sense of affinity or kinship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Javier<br />
I wouldn&#8217;t necessarily include downloading TV programs unless it involved freely licensed TV programs (like DemocracyTV/Miro).  Otherwise the reality is that though I agree with you ethically, it is still illegal to download and watch the TV programs.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s worse though is that it is illegal for you to do something productive and valuable, like add english subtitles to a spanish program and re-distribute it.  Free Culture advocates would argue that this kind of consumer participation should not be criminalized, and I would agree.  </p>
<p>re: culture&#8230; not sure I can answer your question here.  I tried to avoid using the term as much as possible, but when I do use it, I use it to refer to the former definition you give&#8211;that of a totality of economic, behavioral, technical, aesthetic and so on, rules and norms that produce a sense of affinity or kinship.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5314</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5314</guid>
		<description>There is a lot of potentiality in the notion of recursive publics:  certainly users who merely read a connexions module (or people who just use free software, rather than modifying it) are by all means contributing to the actuality of a recursive public.  What constitutes the core of this participation is the sense, at bottom, that one could always change, extend, modify, or re-use this material, software and infrastructure, if the world changed around us. Or if Connexions decided to become evil and corporate, we could take our learning materials with us and set up Connexions2, or some other project.

What&#039;s more, the ability to apprentice and to develop the elite skills necessary to carry forward such a project is also supposed to be open to anyone (i.e. there is no authority that decides who will be the FOSS elite or the Connexions elite), so this lay reading public has the option to become expert if they choose.  Contrast that with science, or newspaper-writing/reading or other activities constituted around closed groups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a lot of potentiality in the notion of recursive publics:  certainly users who merely read a connexions module (or people who just use free software, rather than modifying it) are by all means contributing to the actuality of a recursive public.  What constitutes the core of this participation is the sense, at bottom, that one could always change, extend, modify, or re-use this material, software and infrastructure, if the world changed around us. Or if Connexions decided to become evil and corporate, we could take our learning materials with us and set up Connexions2, or some other project.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s more, the ability to apprentice and to develop the elite skills necessary to carry forward such a project is also supposed to be open to anyone (i.e. there is no authority that decides who will be the FOSS elite or the Connexions elite), so this lay reading public has the option to become expert if they choose.  Contrast that with science, or newspaper-writing/reading or other activities constituted around closed groups.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5313</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5313</guid>
		<description>In a technical sense, or technical-religious sense, FOSS contributors see their work as part of the infrastructure that everyone uses, whether or not they notice (the internet runs on free software).  In that sense, this spectral user group is a public unaware of its own salvation by FOSS, and that is consistent with the predominantly protestant, calvinist especially, style of thinking among FOSS programmers--that you can be saved without knowing it.  

Wikipedia, or better Facebook and MySpace, are examples that might stand up better to this question, because they are not really that elite... and yet only Wikipedia would qualify as Free Software in my terms.  So yes, the public is divided here, and will continue to be so... but it isn&#039;t because of technical access or elitism  per se a la Robins or Webster... it is because of technical and legal choices that were made by Facebook and MySpace... or to put it differently, there are simply more and less public forms of technology, and it matters when people choose to participate in a less public one, even if they don&#039;t personally recognize that they do so.

Lippman&#039;s phantom public was something else though:  it was a public that elites claimed existed, in order to justify their actions, but which Lippman argued did not and could never exist.  The so-called omnicompetent individual who is a member of The Public and participates in all political decision making is a fantasy.  The alternative is multiple publics, each addressing its own issues... which is where Dewey took this debate. So in terms of FOSS, its similarly dangerous to assume that everyone who participates in a recursive public needs to be a programmer with wicked hacking skills... that&#039;s a repeat of the myth of the omnicompetent citizen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a technical sense, or technical-religious sense, FOSS contributors see their work as part of the infrastructure that everyone uses, whether or not they notice (the internet runs on free software).  In that sense, this spectral user group is a public unaware of its own salvation by FOSS, and that is consistent with the predominantly protestant, calvinist especially, style of thinking among FOSS programmers&#8211;that you can be saved without knowing it.  </p>
<p>Wikipedia, or better Facebook and MySpace, are examples that might stand up better to this question, because they are not really that elite&#8230; and yet only Wikipedia would qualify as Free Software in my terms.  So yes, the public is divided here, and will continue to be so&#8230; but it isn&#8217;t because of technical access or elitism  per se a la Robins or Webster&#8230; it is because of technical and legal choices that were made by Facebook and MySpace&#8230; or to put it differently, there are simply more and less public forms of technology, and it matters when people choose to participate in a less public one, even if they don&#8217;t personally recognize that they do so.</p>
<p>Lippman&#8217;s phantom public was something else though:  it was a public that elites claimed existed, in order to justify their actions, but which Lippman argued did not and could never exist.  The so-called omnicompetent individual who is a member of The Public and participates in all political decision making is a fantasy.  The alternative is multiple publics, each addressing its own issues&#8230; which is where Dewey took this debate. So in terms of FOSS, its similarly dangerous to assume that everyone who participates in a recursive public needs to be a programmer with wicked hacking skills&#8230; that&#8217;s a repeat of the myth of the omnicompetent citizen.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Bernard Geoghegan</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129124</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Kahn Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129124</guid>
		<description>nit picking: &quot;level it to their advantage&quot; (used twice in this paragraph) doesn&#039;t make a lot of sense -- to level a playing field is to remove any intrinsic advantage for one player or another.  it seems jarring, unless the point you&#039;re trying to make here is that the act of leveling itself is intrinsically impossible, or that hidden biases are implicit in any act of &quot;leveling&quot;.

&quot;bias it to their advantage&quot; might be better, or maybe &quot;tilt it to their advantage&quot; (which keeps the metaphor alive a bit longer).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nit picking: &#8220;level it to their advantage&#8221; (used twice in this paragraph) doesn&#8217;t make a lot of sense &#8212; to level a playing field is to remove any intrinsic advantage for one player or another.  it seems jarring, unless the point you&#8217;re trying to make here is that the act of leveling itself is intrinsically impossible, or that hidden biases are implicit in any act of &#8220;leveling&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;bias it to their advantage&#8221; might be better, or maybe &#8220;tilt it to their advantage&#8221; (which keeps the metaphor alive a bit longer).</p>
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		<title>Comments on: Introduction</title>
	<atom:link href="http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link></link>
	<description>Discuss.</description>
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		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129402</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 17:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129402</guid>
		<description>Yes, I think the point is that geeks are especially suspicious of attempts by any one entity to create a &quot;level playing field&quot; and see it (perhaps too cynically) as one more strategic move in a game to own standards, systems, platforms, formats, etc.  So the core idea of a recursive public is a system so open, and so recursively modifiable that the game always remains open to new entrants and new plays--and that it is this very openness that levels the playing field, not any one entity or any one rationality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I think the point is that geeks are especially suspicious of attempts by any one entity to create a &#8220;level playing field&#8221; and see it (perhaps too cynically) as one more strategic move in a game to own standards, systems, platforms, formats, etc.  So the core idea of a recursive public is a system so open, and so recursively modifiable that the game always remains open to new entrants and new plays&#8211;and that it is this very openness that levels the playing field, not any one entity or any one rationality.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Kahn Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129130</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Kahn Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:59:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129130</guid>
		<description>i think obsessive archiving is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  While some of it is probably due to &quot;archival hubris&quot;, i think that much of it is actually due to a pervasive fear of screwups, fear of forgetfulness, and in search of the goals of modifiability and flexibility that you outline elsewhere in the book.

In particular, during discussions, arguments and planning processes, there&#039;s a sense of concern that any given decision made today may turn out to be the wrong decision, or may in the future be made in a different way.  Obsessive archiving mitigates the possibility that future decision-makers will be perplexed by the outcome of the process, and will remind them (if they care to read) of the rationales we had in mind when we were coming to terms with the decision we were making.  If the context of the decision turns out to be no longer relevant in 5 years, then reversing the outcome of the decision is no big deal.  But if there were subtle nuances in rationale that are still relevant, an attempt to reverse the outcome can be more easily rebutted.

Also, obsessive archiving (along with an explicit or implicit faith in the power of mechanized search) is seen as a time-saver -- if we can have the discussion with each other in the public, then no one needs to spend any extra time writing or fact-checking minutes, summaries, etc.

This doesn&#039;t work out all the time, so summaries are still needed for some monstrous discussions, or particularly high-bandwidth topics (see, for example, &lt;a href=&quot;http://lwn.net/Kernel/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jon Corbet&#039;s ongoing summaries&lt;/a&gt; of Linux kernel development).  But for smaller discussions and projects, the original archives themselves are a more effective use of limited collaborator hours than preparing and publishing synopses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think obsessive archiving is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  While some of it is probably due to &#8220;archival hubris&#8221;, i think that much of it is actually due to a pervasive fear of screwups, fear of forgetfulness, and in search of the goals of modifiability and flexibility that you outline elsewhere in the book.</p>
<p>In particular, during discussions, arguments and planning processes, there&#8217;s a sense of concern that any given decision made today may turn out to be the wrong decision, or may in the future be made in a different way.  Obsessive archiving mitigates the possibility that future decision-makers will be perplexed by the outcome of the process, and will remind them (if they care to read) of the rationales we had in mind when we were coming to terms with the decision we were making.  If the context of the decision turns out to be no longer relevant in 5 years, then reversing the outcome of the decision is no big deal.  But if there were subtle nuances in rationale that are still relevant, an attempt to reverse the outcome can be more easily rebutted.</p>
<p>Also, obsessive archiving (along with an explicit or implicit faith in the power of mechanized search) is seen as a time-saver &#8212; if we can have the discussion with each other in the public, then no one needs to spend any extra time writing or fact-checking minutes, summaries, etc.</p>
<p>This doesn&#8217;t work out all the time, so summaries are still needed for some monstrous discussions, or particularly high-bandwidth topics (see, for example, <a href="http://lwn.net/Kernel/" rel="nofollow">Jon Corbet&#8217;s ongoing summaries</a> of Linux kernel development).  But for smaller discussions and projects, the original archives themselves are a more effective use of limited collaborator hours than preparing and publishing synopses.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel Kahn Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129124</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Kahn Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129124</guid>
		<description>nit picking: &quot;level it to their advantage&quot; (used twice in this paragraph) doesn&#039;t make a lot of sense -- to level a playing field is to remove any intrinsic advantage for one player or another.  it seems jarring, unless the point you&#039;re trying to make here is that the act of leveling itself is intrinsically impossible, or that hidden biases are implicit in any act of &quot;leveling&quot;.

&quot;bias it to their advantage&quot; might be better, or maybe &quot;tilt it to their advantage&quot; (which keeps the metaphor alive a bit longer).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nit picking: &#8220;level it to their advantage&#8221; (used twice in this paragraph) doesn&#8217;t make a lot of sense &#8212; to level a playing field is to remove any intrinsic advantage for one player or another.  it seems jarring, unless the point you&#8217;re trying to make here is that the act of leveling itself is intrinsically impossible, or that hidden biases are implicit in any act of &#8220;leveling&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;bias it to their advantage&#8221; might be better, or maybe &#8220;tilt it to their advantage&#8221; (which keeps the metaphor alive a bit longer).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-21315</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-21315</guid>
		<description>@jennifer

Absolutely.  Second Life and fan fiction are both great examples to explore in this context.  With second life, the key difference is that Linden Labs has absolute authority over what happens there... but beyond that, certain elements of free software practices are central to second lifers understanding of what they create.

Fan fiction is an even better example because of the way it liberates not just texts or material copies, but characters, plots, situations.  Fan-subbing in anime i another good example.  Here the key difference is the quasi-legality of it.  Free software has figured out a way to create a legal commons that opts out of corporate provision of software... fan fiction and fan subbing exist in uneasy relation to that same corporate provision: they need it to feed their understanding and inhabitation of their worlds, but they deconstruct it and make it public at the same time.  I hope it&#039;s clear that I think using free software as a template for asking about the practices involved in either case is a way of trying to make more precise what makes a public, and what makes publics valuable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@jennifer</p>
<p>Absolutely.  Second Life and fan fiction are both great examples to explore in this context.  With second life, the key difference is that Linden Labs has absolute authority over what happens there&#8230; but beyond that, certain elements of free software practices are central to second lifers understanding of what they create.</p>
<p>Fan fiction is an even better example because of the way it liberates not just texts or material copies, but characters, plots, situations.  Fan-subbing in anime i another good example.  Here the key difference is the quasi-legality of it.  Free software has figured out a way to create a legal commons that opts out of corporate provision of software&#8230; fan fiction and fan subbing exist in uneasy relation to that same corporate provision: they need it to feed their understanding and inhabitation of their worlds, but they deconstruct it and make it public at the same time.  I hope it&#8217;s clear that I think using free software as a template for asking about the practices involved in either case is a way of trying to make more precise what makes a public, and what makes publics valuable.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jennifer Terrell</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-21310</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer Terrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 22:18:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-21310</guid>
		<description>Hello Dr. Kelty,

I am thinking about how one would apply your concept of recursive public to other groups who may, like free software geeks, be difficult to frame. A key concept for recursive public that you set forth is the generation and modification of infrastructure of the group. To what extent can one be liberal with concepts of infrastructure? Thinking about modifiability reminds me of many groups who play with the world they are in, be it a literary world or a virtual world such as second life. Building infrastructure for free software geeks at times literally means coding their world, but can we say that fans who write fan fiction are also crafting their world through the modification of literary canon? Are residents of second life who work to build virtual products and building structures and thus create the second life landscape also maintaining their infrastructure? In this sense can we apply the recursive public framework to these groups as well?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Dr. Kelty,</p>
<p>I am thinking about how one would apply your concept of recursive public to other groups who may, like free software geeks, be difficult to frame. A key concept for recursive public that you set forth is the generation and modification of infrastructure of the group. To what extent can one be liberal with concepts of infrastructure? Thinking about modifiability reminds me of many groups who play with the world they are in, be it a literary world or a virtual world such as second life. Building infrastructure for free software geeks at times literally means coding their world, but can we say that fans who write fan fiction are also crafting their world through the modification of literary canon? Are residents of second life who work to build virtual products and building structures and thus create the second life landscape also maintaining their infrastructure? In this sense can we apply the recursive public framework to these groups as well?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Zbigniew Lukasiak</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-11431</link>
		<dc:creator>Zbigniew Lukasiak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 12:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-11431</guid>
		<description>Maybe it&#039;s nothing important but in the spirit of Open Source I would like to remark that at paragraph 34 page 14 - the word &#039;perl&#039; (which in this version means the interpreter installed at a particular machine) should be &#039;Perl&#039; (which means the Perl programming language). See: http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe it&#8217;s nothing important but in the spirit of Open Source I would like to remark that at paragraph 34 page 14 &#8211; the word &#8216;perl&#8217; (which in this version means the interpreter installed at a particular machine) should be &#8216;Perl&#8217; (which means the Perl programming language). See: <a href="http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f" rel="nofollow">http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5315</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5315</guid>
		<description>@Javier
I wouldn&#039;t necessarily include downloading TV programs unless it involved freely licensed TV programs (like DemocracyTV/Miro).  Otherwise the reality is that though I agree with you ethically, it is still illegal to download and watch the TV programs.

What&#039;s worse though is that it is illegal for you to do something productive and valuable, like add english subtitles to a spanish program and re-distribute it.  Free Culture advocates would argue that this kind of consumer participation should not be criminalized, and I would agree.  

re: culture... not sure I can answer your question here.  I tried to avoid using the term as much as possible, but when I do use it, I use it to refer to the former definition you give--that of a totality of economic, behavioral, technical, aesthetic and so on, rules and norms that produce a sense of affinity or kinship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Javier<br />
I wouldn&#8217;t necessarily include downloading TV programs unless it involved freely licensed TV programs (like DemocracyTV/Miro).  Otherwise the reality is that though I agree with you ethically, it is still illegal to download and watch the TV programs.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s worse though is that it is illegal for you to do something productive and valuable, like add english subtitles to a spanish program and re-distribute it.  Free Culture advocates would argue that this kind of consumer participation should not be criminalized, and I would agree.  </p>
<p>re: culture&#8230; not sure I can answer your question here.  I tried to avoid using the term as much as possible, but when I do use it, I use it to refer to the former definition you give&#8211;that of a totality of economic, behavioral, technical, aesthetic and so on, rules and norms that produce a sense of affinity or kinship.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5314</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5314</guid>
		<description>There is a lot of potentiality in the notion of recursive publics:  certainly users who merely read a connexions module (or people who just use free software, rather than modifying it) are by all means contributing to the actuality of a recursive public.  What constitutes the core of this participation is the sense, at bottom, that one could always change, extend, modify, or re-use this material, software and infrastructure, if the world changed around us. Or if Connexions decided to become evil and corporate, we could take our learning materials with us and set up Connexions2, or some other project.

What&#039;s more, the ability to apprentice and to develop the elite skills necessary to carry forward such a project is also supposed to be open to anyone (i.e. there is no authority that decides who will be the FOSS elite or the Connexions elite), so this lay reading public has the option to become expert if they choose.  Contrast that with science, or newspaper-writing/reading or other activities constituted around closed groups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a lot of potentiality in the notion of recursive publics:  certainly users who merely read a connexions module (or people who just use free software, rather than modifying it) are by all means contributing to the actuality of a recursive public.  What constitutes the core of this participation is the sense, at bottom, that one could always change, extend, modify, or re-use this material, software and infrastructure, if the world changed around us. Or if Connexions decided to become evil and corporate, we could take our learning materials with us and set up Connexions2, or some other project.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s more, the ability to apprentice and to develop the elite skills necessary to carry forward such a project is also supposed to be open to anyone (i.e. there is no authority that decides who will be the FOSS elite or the Connexions elite), so this lay reading public has the option to become expert if they choose.  Contrast that with science, or newspaper-writing/reading or other activities constituted around closed groups.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5313</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5313</guid>
		<description>In a technical sense, or technical-religious sense, FOSS contributors see their work as part of the infrastructure that everyone uses, whether or not they notice (the internet runs on free software).  In that sense, this spectral user group is a public unaware of its own salvation by FOSS, and that is consistent with the predominantly protestant, calvinist especially, style of thinking among FOSS programmers--that you can be saved without knowing it.  

Wikipedia, or better Facebook and MySpace, are examples that might stand up better to this question, because they are not really that elite... and yet only Wikipedia would qualify as Free Software in my terms.  So yes, the public is divided here, and will continue to be so... but it isn&#039;t because of technical access or elitism  per se a la Robins or Webster... it is because of technical and legal choices that were made by Facebook and MySpace... or to put it differently, there are simply more and less public forms of technology, and it matters when people choose to participate in a less public one, even if they don&#039;t personally recognize that they do so.

Lippman&#039;s phantom public was something else though:  it was a public that elites claimed existed, in order to justify their actions, but which Lippman argued did not and could never exist.  The so-called omnicompetent individual who is a member of The Public and participates in all political decision making is a fantasy.  The alternative is multiple publics, each addressing its own issues... which is where Dewey took this debate. So in terms of FOSS, its similarly dangerous to assume that everyone who participates in a recursive public needs to be a programmer with wicked hacking skills... that&#039;s a repeat of the myth of the omnicompetent citizen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a technical sense, or technical-religious sense, FOSS contributors see their work as part of the infrastructure that everyone uses, whether or not they notice (the internet runs on free software).  In that sense, this spectral user group is a public unaware of its own salvation by FOSS, and that is consistent with the predominantly protestant, calvinist especially, style of thinking among FOSS programmers&#8211;that you can be saved without knowing it.  </p>
<p>Wikipedia, or better Facebook and MySpace, are examples that might stand up better to this question, because they are not really that elite&#8230; and yet only Wikipedia would qualify as Free Software in my terms.  So yes, the public is divided here, and will continue to be so&#8230; but it isn&#8217;t because of technical access or elitism  per se a la Robins or Webster&#8230; it is because of technical and legal choices that were made by Facebook and MySpace&#8230; or to put it differently, there are simply more and less public forms of technology, and it matters when people choose to participate in a less public one, even if they don&#8217;t personally recognize that they do so.</p>
<p>Lippman&#8217;s phantom public was something else though:  it was a public that elites claimed existed, in order to justify their actions, but which Lippman argued did not and could never exist.  The so-called omnicompetent individual who is a member of The Public and participates in all political decision making is a fantasy.  The alternative is multiple publics, each addressing its own issues&#8230; which is where Dewey took this debate. So in terms of FOSS, its similarly dangerous to assume that everyone who participates in a recursive public needs to be a programmer with wicked hacking skills&#8230; that&#8217;s a repeat of the myth of the omnicompetent citizen.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bernard Geoghegan</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-21315</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-21315</guid>
		<description>@jennifer

Absolutely.  Second Life and fan fiction are both great examples to explore in this context.  With second life, the key difference is that Linden Labs has absolute authority over what happens there... but beyond that, certain elements of free software practices are central to second lifers understanding of what they create.

Fan fiction is an even better example because of the way it liberates not just texts or material copies, but characters, plots, situations.  Fan-subbing in anime i another good example.  Here the key difference is the quasi-legality of it.  Free software has figured out a way to create a legal commons that opts out of corporate provision of software... fan fiction and fan subbing exist in uneasy relation to that same corporate provision: they need it to feed their understanding and inhabitation of their worlds, but they deconstruct it and make it public at the same time.  I hope it&#039;s clear that I think using free software as a template for asking about the practices involved in either case is a way of trying to make more precise what makes a public, and what makes publics valuable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@jennifer</p>
<p>Absolutely.  Second Life and fan fiction are both great examples to explore in this context.  With second life, the key difference is that Linden Labs has absolute authority over what happens there&#8230; but beyond that, certain elements of free software practices are central to second lifers understanding of what they create.</p>
<p>Fan fiction is an even better example because of the way it liberates not just texts or material copies, but characters, plots, situations.  Fan-subbing in anime i another good example.  Here the key difference is the quasi-legality of it.  Free software has figured out a way to create a legal commons that opts out of corporate provision of software&#8230; fan fiction and fan subbing exist in uneasy relation to that same corporate provision: they need it to feed their understanding and inhabitation of their worlds, but they deconstruct it and make it public at the same time.  I hope it&#8217;s clear that I think using free software as a template for asking about the practices involved in either case is a way of trying to make more precise what makes a public, and what makes publics valuable.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>Comments on: Introduction</title>
	<atom:link href="http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link></link>
	<description>Discuss.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 13:27:10 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129402</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 17:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129402</guid>
		<description>Yes, I think the point is that geeks are especially suspicious of attempts by any one entity to create a &quot;level playing field&quot; and see it (perhaps too cynically) as one more strategic move in a game to own standards, systems, platforms, formats, etc.  So the core idea of a recursive public is a system so open, and so recursively modifiable that the game always remains open to new entrants and new plays--and that it is this very openness that levels the playing field, not any one entity or any one rationality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I think the point is that geeks are especially suspicious of attempts by any one entity to create a &#8220;level playing field&#8221; and see it (perhaps too cynically) as one more strategic move in a game to own standards, systems, platforms, formats, etc.  So the core idea of a recursive public is a system so open, and so recursively modifiable that the game always remains open to new entrants and new plays&#8211;and that it is this very openness that levels the playing field, not any one entity or any one rationality.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Kahn Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129130</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Kahn Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:59:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129130</guid>
		<description>i think obsessive archiving is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  While some of it is probably due to &quot;archival hubris&quot;, i think that much of it is actually due to a pervasive fear of screwups, fear of forgetfulness, and in search of the goals of modifiability and flexibility that you outline elsewhere in the book.

In particular, during discussions, arguments and planning processes, there&#039;s a sense of concern that any given decision made today may turn out to be the wrong decision, or may in the future be made in a different way.  Obsessive archiving mitigates the possibility that future decision-makers will be perplexed by the outcome of the process, and will remind them (if they care to read) of the rationales we had in mind when we were coming to terms with the decision we were making.  If the context of the decision turns out to be no longer relevant in 5 years, then reversing the outcome of the decision is no big deal.  But if there were subtle nuances in rationale that are still relevant, an attempt to reverse the outcome can be more easily rebutted.

Also, obsessive archiving (along with an explicit or implicit faith in the power of mechanized search) is seen as a time-saver -- if we can have the discussion with each other in the public, then no one needs to spend any extra time writing or fact-checking minutes, summaries, etc.

This doesn&#039;t work out all the time, so summaries are still needed for some monstrous discussions, or particularly high-bandwidth topics (see, for example, &lt;a href=&quot;http://lwn.net/Kernel/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jon Corbet&#039;s ongoing summaries&lt;/a&gt; of Linux kernel development).  But for smaller discussions and projects, the original archives themselves are a more effective use of limited collaborator hours than preparing and publishing synopses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think obsessive archiving is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  While some of it is probably due to &#8220;archival hubris&#8221;, i think that much of it is actually due to a pervasive fear of screwups, fear of forgetfulness, and in search of the goals of modifiability and flexibility that you outline elsewhere in the book.</p>
<p>In particular, during discussions, arguments and planning processes, there&#8217;s a sense of concern that any given decision made today may turn out to be the wrong decision, or may in the future be made in a different way.  Obsessive archiving mitigates the possibility that future decision-makers will be perplexed by the outcome of the process, and will remind them (if they care to read) of the rationales we had in mind when we were coming to terms with the decision we were making.  If the context of the decision turns out to be no longer relevant in 5 years, then reversing the outcome of the decision is no big deal.  But if there were subtle nuances in rationale that are still relevant, an attempt to reverse the outcome can be more easily rebutted.</p>
<p>Also, obsessive archiving (along with an explicit or implicit faith in the power of mechanized search) is seen as a time-saver &#8212; if we can have the discussion with each other in the public, then no one needs to spend any extra time writing or fact-checking minutes, summaries, etc.</p>
<p>This doesn&#8217;t work out all the time, so summaries are still needed for some monstrous discussions, or particularly high-bandwidth topics (see, for example, <a href="http://lwn.net/Kernel/" rel="nofollow">Jon Corbet&#8217;s ongoing summaries</a> of Linux kernel development).  But for smaller discussions and projects, the original archives themselves are a more effective use of limited collaborator hours than preparing and publishing synopses.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel Kahn Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129124</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Kahn Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129124</guid>
		<description>nit picking: &quot;level it to their advantage&quot; (used twice in this paragraph) doesn&#039;t make a lot of sense -- to level a playing field is to remove any intrinsic advantage for one player or another.  it seems jarring, unless the point you&#039;re trying to make here is that the act of leveling itself is intrinsically impossible, or that hidden biases are implicit in any act of &quot;leveling&quot;.

&quot;bias it to their advantage&quot; might be better, or maybe &quot;tilt it to their advantage&quot; (which keeps the metaphor alive a bit longer).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nit picking: &#8220;level it to their advantage&#8221; (used twice in this paragraph) doesn&#8217;t make a lot of sense &#8212; to level a playing field is to remove any intrinsic advantage for one player or another.  it seems jarring, unless the point you&#8217;re trying to make here is that the act of leveling itself is intrinsically impossible, or that hidden biases are implicit in any act of &#8220;leveling&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;bias it to their advantage&#8221; might be better, or maybe &#8220;tilt it to their advantage&#8221; (which keeps the metaphor alive a bit longer).</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-21315</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-21315</guid>
		<description>@jennifer

Absolutely.  Second Life and fan fiction are both great examples to explore in this context.  With second life, the key difference is that Linden Labs has absolute authority over what happens there... but beyond that, certain elements of free software practices are central to second lifers understanding of what they create.

Fan fiction is an even better example because of the way it liberates not just texts or material copies, but characters, plots, situations.  Fan-subbing in anime i another good example.  Here the key difference is the quasi-legality of it.  Free software has figured out a way to create a legal commons that opts out of corporate provision of software... fan fiction and fan subbing exist in uneasy relation to that same corporate provision: they need it to feed their understanding and inhabitation of their worlds, but they deconstruct it and make it public at the same time.  I hope it&#039;s clear that I think using free software as a template for asking about the practices involved in either case is a way of trying to make more precise what makes a public, and what makes publics valuable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@jennifer</p>
<p>Absolutely.  Second Life and fan fiction are both great examples to explore in this context.  With second life, the key difference is that Linden Labs has absolute authority over what happens there&#8230; but beyond that, certain elements of free software practices are central to second lifers understanding of what they create.</p>
<p>Fan fiction is an even better example because of the way it liberates not just texts or material copies, but characters, plots, situations.  Fan-subbing in anime i another good example.  Here the key difference is the quasi-legality of it.  Free software has figured out a way to create a legal commons that opts out of corporate provision of software&#8230; fan fiction and fan subbing exist in uneasy relation to that same corporate provision: they need it to feed their understanding and inhabitation of their worlds, but they deconstruct it and make it public at the same time.  I hope it&#8217;s clear that I think using free software as a template for asking about the practices involved in either case is a way of trying to make more precise what makes a public, and what makes publics valuable.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jennifer Terrell</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-21310</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer Terrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 22:18:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-21310</guid>
		<description>Hello Dr. Kelty,

I am thinking about how one would apply your concept of recursive public to other groups who may, like free software geeks, be difficult to frame. A key concept for recursive public that you set forth is the generation and modification of infrastructure of the group. To what extent can one be liberal with concepts of infrastructure? Thinking about modifiability reminds me of many groups who play with the world they are in, be it a literary world or a virtual world such as second life. Building infrastructure for free software geeks at times literally means coding their world, but can we say that fans who write fan fiction are also crafting their world through the modification of literary canon? Are residents of second life who work to build virtual products and building structures and thus create the second life landscape also maintaining their infrastructure? In this sense can we apply the recursive public framework to these groups as well?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Dr. Kelty,</p>
<p>I am thinking about how one would apply your concept of recursive public to other groups who may, like free software geeks, be difficult to frame. A key concept for recursive public that you set forth is the generation and modification of infrastructure of the group. To what extent can one be liberal with concepts of infrastructure? Thinking about modifiability reminds me of many groups who play with the world they are in, be it a literary world or a virtual world such as second life. Building infrastructure for free software geeks at times literally means coding their world, but can we say that fans who write fan fiction are also crafting their world through the modification of literary canon? Are residents of second life who work to build virtual products and building structures and thus create the second life landscape also maintaining their infrastructure? In this sense can we apply the recursive public framework to these groups as well?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Zbigniew Lukasiak</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-11431</link>
		<dc:creator>Zbigniew Lukasiak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 12:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-11431</guid>
		<description>Maybe it&#039;s nothing important but in the spirit of Open Source I would like to remark that at paragraph 34 page 14 - the word &#039;perl&#039; (which in this version means the interpreter installed at a particular machine) should be &#039;Perl&#039; (which means the Perl programming language). See: http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe it&#8217;s nothing important but in the spirit of Open Source I would like to remark that at paragraph 34 page 14 &#8211; the word &#8216;perl&#8217; (which in this version means the interpreter installed at a particular machine) should be &#8216;Perl&#8217; (which means the Perl programming language). See: <a href="http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f" rel="nofollow">http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f</a></p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5315</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5315</guid>
		<description>@Javier
I wouldn&#039;t necessarily include downloading TV programs unless it involved freely licensed TV programs (like DemocracyTV/Miro).  Otherwise the reality is that though I agree with you ethically, it is still illegal to download and watch the TV programs.

What&#039;s worse though is that it is illegal for you to do something productive and valuable, like add english subtitles to a spanish program and re-distribute it.  Free Culture advocates would argue that this kind of consumer participation should not be criminalized, and I would agree.  

re: culture... not sure I can answer your question here.  I tried to avoid using the term as much as possible, but when I do use it, I use it to refer to the former definition you give--that of a totality of economic, behavioral, technical, aesthetic and so on, rules and norms that produce a sense of affinity or kinship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Javier<br />
I wouldn&#8217;t necessarily include downloading TV programs unless it involved freely licensed TV programs (like DemocracyTV/Miro).  Otherwise the reality is that though I agree with you ethically, it is still illegal to download and watch the TV programs.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s worse though is that it is illegal for you to do something productive and valuable, like add english subtitles to a spanish program and re-distribute it.  Free Culture advocates would argue that this kind of consumer participation should not be criminalized, and I would agree.  </p>
<p>re: culture&#8230; not sure I can answer your question here.  I tried to avoid using the term as much as possible, but when I do use it, I use it to refer to the former definition you give&#8211;that of a totality of economic, behavioral, technical, aesthetic and so on, rules and norms that produce a sense of affinity or kinship.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5314</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5314</guid>
		<description>There is a lot of potentiality in the notion of recursive publics:  certainly users who merely read a connexions module (or people who just use free software, rather than modifying it) are by all means contributing to the actuality of a recursive public.  What constitutes the core of this participation is the sense, at bottom, that one could always change, extend, modify, or re-use this material, software and infrastructure, if the world changed around us. Or if Connexions decided to become evil and corporate, we could take our learning materials with us and set up Connexions2, or some other project.

What&#039;s more, the ability to apprentice and to develop the elite skills necessary to carry forward such a project is also supposed to be open to anyone (i.e. there is no authority that decides who will be the FOSS elite or the Connexions elite), so this lay reading public has the option to become expert if they choose.  Contrast that with science, or newspaper-writing/reading or other activities constituted around closed groups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a lot of potentiality in the notion of recursive publics:  certainly users who merely read a connexions module (or people who just use free software, rather than modifying it) are by all means contributing to the actuality of a recursive public.  What constitutes the core of this participation is the sense, at bottom, that one could always change, extend, modify, or re-use this material, software and infrastructure, if the world changed around us. Or if Connexions decided to become evil and corporate, we could take our learning materials with us and set up Connexions2, or some other project.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s more, the ability to apprentice and to develop the elite skills necessary to carry forward such a project is also supposed to be open to anyone (i.e. there is no authority that decides who will be the FOSS elite or the Connexions elite), so this lay reading public has the option to become expert if they choose.  Contrast that with science, or newspaper-writing/reading or other activities constituted around closed groups.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5313</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5313</guid>
		<description>In a technical sense, or technical-religious sense, FOSS contributors see their work as part of the infrastructure that everyone uses, whether or not they notice (the internet runs on free software).  In that sense, this spectral user group is a public unaware of its own salvation by FOSS, and that is consistent with the predominantly protestant, calvinist especially, style of thinking among FOSS programmers--that you can be saved without knowing it.  

Wikipedia, or better Facebook and MySpace, are examples that might stand up better to this question, because they are not really that elite... and yet only Wikipedia would qualify as Free Software in my terms.  So yes, the public is divided here, and will continue to be so... but it isn&#039;t because of technical access or elitism  per se a la Robins or Webster... it is because of technical and legal choices that were made by Facebook and MySpace... or to put it differently, there are simply more and less public forms of technology, and it matters when people choose to participate in a less public one, even if they don&#039;t personally recognize that they do so.

Lippman&#039;s phantom public was something else though:  it was a public that elites claimed existed, in order to justify their actions, but which Lippman argued did not and could never exist.  The so-called omnicompetent individual who is a member of The Public and participates in all political decision making is a fantasy.  The alternative is multiple publics, each addressing its own issues... which is where Dewey took this debate. So in terms of FOSS, its similarly dangerous to assume that everyone who participates in a recursive public needs to be a programmer with wicked hacking skills... that&#039;s a repeat of the myth of the omnicompetent citizen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a technical sense, or technical-religious sense, FOSS contributors see their work as part of the infrastructure that everyone uses, whether or not they notice (the internet runs on free software).  In that sense, this spectral user group is a public unaware of its own salvation by FOSS, and that is consistent with the predominantly protestant, calvinist especially, style of thinking among FOSS programmers&#8211;that you can be saved without knowing it.  </p>
<p>Wikipedia, or better Facebook and MySpace, are examples that might stand up better to this question, because they are not really that elite&#8230; and yet only Wikipedia would qualify as Free Software in my terms.  So yes, the public is divided here, and will continue to be so&#8230; but it isn&#8217;t because of technical access or elitism  per se a la Robins or Webster&#8230; it is because of technical and legal choices that were made by Facebook and MySpace&#8230; or to put it differently, there are simply more and less public forms of technology, and it matters when people choose to participate in a less public one, even if they don&#8217;t personally recognize that they do so.</p>
<p>Lippman&#8217;s phantom public was something else though:  it was a public that elites claimed existed, in order to justify their actions, but which Lippman argued did not and could never exist.  The so-called omnicompetent individual who is a member of The Public and participates in all political decision making is a fantasy.  The alternative is multiple publics, each addressing its own issues&#8230; which is where Dewey took this debate. So in terms of FOSS, its similarly dangerous to assume that everyone who participates in a recursive public needs to be a programmer with wicked hacking skills&#8230; that&#8217;s a repeat of the myth of the omnicompetent citizen.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bernard Geoghegan</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-21310</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer Terrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 22:18:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-21310</guid>
		<description>Hello Dr. Kelty,

I am thinking about how one would apply your concept of recursive public to other groups who may, like free software geeks, be difficult to frame. A key concept for recursive public that you set forth is the generation and modification of infrastructure of the group. To what extent can one be liberal with concepts of infrastructure? Thinking about modifiability reminds me of many groups who play with the world they are in, be it a literary world or a virtual world such as second life. Building infrastructure for free software geeks at times literally means coding their world, but can we say that fans who write fan fiction are also crafting their world through the modification of literary canon? Are residents of second life who work to build virtual products and building structures and thus create the second life landscape also maintaining their infrastructure? In this sense can we apply the recursive public framework to these groups as well?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Dr. Kelty,</p>
<p>I am thinking about how one would apply your concept of recursive public to other groups who may, like free software geeks, be difficult to frame. A key concept for recursive public that you set forth is the generation and modification of infrastructure of the group. To what extent can one be liberal with concepts of infrastructure? Thinking about modifiability reminds me of many groups who play with the world they are in, be it a literary world or a virtual world such as second life. Building infrastructure for free software geeks at times literally means coding their world, but can we say that fans who write fan fiction are also crafting their world through the modification of literary canon? Are residents of second life who work to build virtual products and building structures and thus create the second life landscape also maintaining their infrastructure? In this sense can we apply the recursive public framework to these groups as well?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comments on: Introduction</title>
	<atom:link href="http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link></link>
	<description>Discuss.</description>
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		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129402</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 17:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129402</guid>
		<description>Yes, I think the point is that geeks are especially suspicious of attempts by any one entity to create a &quot;level playing field&quot; and see it (perhaps too cynically) as one more strategic move in a game to own standards, systems, platforms, formats, etc.  So the core idea of a recursive public is a system so open, and so recursively modifiable that the game always remains open to new entrants and new plays--and that it is this very openness that levels the playing field, not any one entity or any one rationality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I think the point is that geeks are especially suspicious of attempts by any one entity to create a &#8220;level playing field&#8221; and see it (perhaps too cynically) as one more strategic move in a game to own standards, systems, platforms, formats, etc.  So the core idea of a recursive public is a system so open, and so recursively modifiable that the game always remains open to new entrants and new plays&#8211;and that it is this very openness that levels the playing field, not any one entity or any one rationality.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel Kahn Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129130</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Kahn Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:59:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129130</guid>
		<description>i think obsessive archiving is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  While some of it is probably due to &quot;archival hubris&quot;, i think that much of it is actually due to a pervasive fear of screwups, fear of forgetfulness, and in search of the goals of modifiability and flexibility that you outline elsewhere in the book.

In particular, during discussions, arguments and planning processes, there&#039;s a sense of concern that any given decision made today may turn out to be the wrong decision, or may in the future be made in a different way.  Obsessive archiving mitigates the possibility that future decision-makers will be perplexed by the outcome of the process, and will remind them (if they care to read) of the rationales we had in mind when we were coming to terms with the decision we were making.  If the context of the decision turns out to be no longer relevant in 5 years, then reversing the outcome of the decision is no big deal.  But if there were subtle nuances in rationale that are still relevant, an attempt to reverse the outcome can be more easily rebutted.

Also, obsessive archiving (along with an explicit or implicit faith in the power of mechanized search) is seen as a time-saver -- if we can have the discussion with each other in the public, then no one needs to spend any extra time writing or fact-checking minutes, summaries, etc.

This doesn&#039;t work out all the time, so summaries are still needed for some monstrous discussions, or particularly high-bandwidth topics (see, for example, &lt;a href=&quot;http://lwn.net/Kernel/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jon Corbet&#039;s ongoing summaries&lt;/a&gt; of Linux kernel development).  But for smaller discussions and projects, the original archives themselves are a more effective use of limited collaborator hours than preparing and publishing synopses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think obsessive archiving is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  While some of it is probably due to &#8220;archival hubris&#8221;, i think that much of it is actually due to a pervasive fear of screwups, fear of forgetfulness, and in search of the goals of modifiability and flexibility that you outline elsewhere in the book.</p>
<p>In particular, during discussions, arguments and planning processes, there&#8217;s a sense of concern that any given decision made today may turn out to be the wrong decision, or may in the future be made in a different way.  Obsessive archiving mitigates the possibility that future decision-makers will be perplexed by the outcome of the process, and will remind them (if they care to read) of the rationales we had in mind when we were coming to terms with the decision we were making.  If the context of the decision turns out to be no longer relevant in 5 years, then reversing the outcome of the decision is no big deal.  But if there were subtle nuances in rationale that are still relevant, an attempt to reverse the outcome can be more easily rebutted.</p>
<p>Also, obsessive archiving (along with an explicit or implicit faith in the power of mechanized search) is seen as a time-saver &#8212; if we can have the discussion with each other in the public, then no one needs to spend any extra time writing or fact-checking minutes, summaries, etc.</p>
<p>This doesn&#8217;t work out all the time, so summaries are still needed for some monstrous discussions, or particularly high-bandwidth topics (see, for example, <a href="http://lwn.net/Kernel/" rel="nofollow">Jon Corbet&#8217;s ongoing summaries</a> of Linux kernel development).  But for smaller discussions and projects, the original archives themselves are a more effective use of limited collaborator hours than preparing and publishing synopses.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel Kahn Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129124</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Kahn Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129124</guid>
		<description>nit picking: &quot;level it to their advantage&quot; (used twice in this paragraph) doesn&#039;t make a lot of sense -- to level a playing field is to remove any intrinsic advantage for one player or another.  it seems jarring, unless the point you&#039;re trying to make here is that the act of leveling itself is intrinsically impossible, or that hidden biases are implicit in any act of &quot;leveling&quot;.

&quot;bias it to their advantage&quot; might be better, or maybe &quot;tilt it to their advantage&quot; (which keeps the metaphor alive a bit longer).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nit picking: &#8220;level it to their advantage&#8221; (used twice in this paragraph) doesn&#8217;t make a lot of sense &#8212; to level a playing field is to remove any intrinsic advantage for one player or another.  it seems jarring, unless the point you&#8217;re trying to make here is that the act of leveling itself is intrinsically impossible, or that hidden biases are implicit in any act of &#8220;leveling&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;bias it to their advantage&#8221; might be better, or maybe &#8220;tilt it to their advantage&#8221; (which keeps the metaphor alive a bit longer).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-21315</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-21315</guid>
		<description>@jennifer

Absolutely.  Second Life and fan fiction are both great examples to explore in this context.  With second life, the key difference is that Linden Labs has absolute authority over what happens there... but beyond that, certain elements of free software practices are central to second lifers understanding of what they create.

Fan fiction is an even better example because of the way it liberates not just texts or material copies, but characters, plots, situations.  Fan-subbing in anime i another good example.  Here the key difference is the quasi-legality of it.  Free software has figured out a way to create a legal commons that opts out of corporate provision of software... fan fiction and fan subbing exist in uneasy relation to that same corporate provision: they need it to feed their understanding and inhabitation of their worlds, but they deconstruct it and make it public at the same time.  I hope it&#039;s clear that I think using free software as a template for asking about the practices involved in either case is a way of trying to make more precise what makes a public, and what makes publics valuable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@jennifer</p>
<p>Absolutely.  Second Life and fan fiction are both great examples to explore in this context.  With second life, the key difference is that Linden Labs has absolute authority over what happens there&#8230; but beyond that, certain elements of free software practices are central to second lifers understanding of what they create.</p>
<p>Fan fiction is an even better example because of the way it liberates not just texts or material copies, but characters, plots, situations.  Fan-subbing in anime i another good example.  Here the key difference is the quasi-legality of it.  Free software has figured out a way to create a legal commons that opts out of corporate provision of software&#8230; fan fiction and fan subbing exist in uneasy relation to that same corporate provision: they need it to feed their understanding and inhabitation of their worlds, but they deconstruct it and make it public at the same time.  I hope it&#8217;s clear that I think using free software as a template for asking about the practices involved in either case is a way of trying to make more precise what makes a public, and what makes publics valuable.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jennifer Terrell</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-21310</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer Terrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 22:18:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-21310</guid>
		<description>Hello Dr. Kelty,

I am thinking about how one would apply your concept of recursive public to other groups who may, like free software geeks, be difficult to frame. A key concept for recursive public that you set forth is the generation and modification of infrastructure of the group. To what extent can one be liberal with concepts of infrastructure? Thinking about modifiability reminds me of many groups who play with the world they are in, be it a literary world or a virtual world such as second life. Building infrastructure for free software geeks at times literally means coding their world, but can we say that fans who write fan fiction are also crafting their world through the modification of literary canon? Are residents of second life who work to build virtual products and building structures and thus create the second life landscape also maintaining their infrastructure? In this sense can we apply the recursive public framework to these groups as well?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Dr. Kelty,</p>
<p>I am thinking about how one would apply your concept of recursive public to other groups who may, like free software geeks, be difficult to frame. A key concept for recursive public that you set forth is the generation and modification of infrastructure of the group. To what extent can one be liberal with concepts of infrastructure? Thinking about modifiability reminds me of many groups who play with the world they are in, be it a literary world or a virtual world such as second life. Building infrastructure for free software geeks at times literally means coding their world, but can we say that fans who write fan fiction are also crafting their world through the modification of literary canon? Are residents of second life who work to build virtual products and building structures and thus create the second life landscape also maintaining their infrastructure? In this sense can we apply the recursive public framework to these groups as well?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Zbigniew Lukasiak</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-11431</link>
		<dc:creator>Zbigniew Lukasiak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 12:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-11431</guid>
		<description>Maybe it&#039;s nothing important but in the spirit of Open Source I would like to remark that at paragraph 34 page 14 - the word &#039;perl&#039; (which in this version means the interpreter installed at a particular machine) should be &#039;Perl&#039; (which means the Perl programming language). See: http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe it&#8217;s nothing important but in the spirit of Open Source I would like to remark that at paragraph 34 page 14 &#8211; the word &#8216;perl&#8217; (which in this version means the interpreter installed at a particular machine) should be &#8216;Perl&#8217; (which means the Perl programming language). See: <a href="http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f" rel="nofollow">http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5315</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5315</guid>
		<description>@Javier
I wouldn&#039;t necessarily include downloading TV programs unless it involved freely licensed TV programs (like DemocracyTV/Miro).  Otherwise the reality is that though I agree with you ethically, it is still illegal to download and watch the TV programs.

What&#039;s worse though is that it is illegal for you to do something productive and valuable, like add english subtitles to a spanish program and re-distribute it.  Free Culture advocates would argue that this kind of consumer participation should not be criminalized, and I would agree.  

re: culture... not sure I can answer your question here.  I tried to avoid using the term as much as possible, but when I do use it, I use it to refer to the former definition you give--that of a totality of economic, behavioral, technical, aesthetic and so on, rules and norms that produce a sense of affinity or kinship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Javier<br />
I wouldn&#8217;t necessarily include downloading TV programs unless it involved freely licensed TV programs (like DemocracyTV/Miro).  Otherwise the reality is that though I agree with you ethically, it is still illegal to download and watch the TV programs.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s worse though is that it is illegal for you to do something productive and valuable, like add english subtitles to a spanish program and re-distribute it.  Free Culture advocates would argue that this kind of consumer participation should not be criminalized, and I would agree.  </p>
<p>re: culture&#8230; not sure I can answer your question here.  I tried to avoid using the term as much as possible, but when I do use it, I use it to refer to the former definition you give&#8211;that of a totality of economic, behavioral, technical, aesthetic and so on, rules and norms that produce a sense of affinity or kinship.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5314</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5314</guid>
		<description>There is a lot of potentiality in the notion of recursive publics:  certainly users who merely read a connexions module (or people who just use free software, rather than modifying it) are by all means contributing to the actuality of a recursive public.  What constitutes the core of this participation is the sense, at bottom, that one could always change, extend, modify, or re-use this material, software and infrastructure, if the world changed around us. Or if Connexions decided to become evil and corporate, we could take our learning materials with us and set up Connexions2, or some other project.

What&#039;s more, the ability to apprentice and to develop the elite skills necessary to carry forward such a project is also supposed to be open to anyone (i.e. there is no authority that decides who will be the FOSS elite or the Connexions elite), so this lay reading public has the option to become expert if they choose.  Contrast that with science, or newspaper-writing/reading or other activities constituted around closed groups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a lot of potentiality in the notion of recursive publics:  certainly users who merely read a connexions module (or people who just use free software, rather than modifying it) are by all means contributing to the actuality of a recursive public.  What constitutes the core of this participation is the sense, at bottom, that one could always change, extend, modify, or re-use this material, software and infrastructure, if the world changed around us. Or if Connexions decided to become evil and corporate, we could take our learning materials with us and set up Connexions2, or some other project.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s more, the ability to apprentice and to develop the elite skills necessary to carry forward such a project is also supposed to be open to anyone (i.e. there is no authority that decides who will be the FOSS elite or the Connexions elite), so this lay reading public has the option to become expert if they choose.  Contrast that with science, or newspaper-writing/reading or other activities constituted around closed groups.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5313</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5313</guid>
		<description>In a technical sense, or technical-religious sense, FOSS contributors see their work as part of the infrastructure that everyone uses, whether or not they notice (the internet runs on free software).  In that sense, this spectral user group is a public unaware of its own salvation by FOSS, and that is consistent with the predominantly protestant, calvinist especially, style of thinking among FOSS programmers--that you can be saved without knowing it.  

Wikipedia, or better Facebook and MySpace, are examples that might stand up better to this question, because they are not really that elite... and yet only Wikipedia would qualify as Free Software in my terms.  So yes, the public is divided here, and will continue to be so... but it isn&#039;t because of technical access or elitism  per se a la Robins or Webster... it is because of technical and legal choices that were made by Facebook and MySpace... or to put it differently, there are simply more and less public forms of technology, and it matters when people choose to participate in a less public one, even if they don&#039;t personally recognize that they do so.

Lippman&#039;s phantom public was something else though:  it was a public that elites claimed existed, in order to justify their actions, but which Lippman argued did not and could never exist.  The so-called omnicompetent individual who is a member of The Public and participates in all political decision making is a fantasy.  The alternative is multiple publics, each addressing its own issues... which is where Dewey took this debate. So in terms of FOSS, its similarly dangerous to assume that everyone who participates in a recursive public needs to be a programmer with wicked hacking skills... that&#039;s a repeat of the myth of the omnicompetent citizen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a technical sense, or technical-religious sense, FOSS contributors see their work as part of the infrastructure that everyone uses, whether or not they notice (the internet runs on free software).  In that sense, this spectral user group is a public unaware of its own salvation by FOSS, and that is consistent with the predominantly protestant, calvinist especially, style of thinking among FOSS programmers&#8211;that you can be saved without knowing it.  </p>
<p>Wikipedia, or better Facebook and MySpace, are examples that might stand up better to this question, because they are not really that elite&#8230; and yet only Wikipedia would qualify as Free Software in my terms.  So yes, the public is divided here, and will continue to be so&#8230; but it isn&#8217;t because of technical access or elitism  per se a la Robins or Webster&#8230; it is because of technical and legal choices that were made by Facebook and MySpace&#8230; or to put it differently, there are simply more and less public forms of technology, and it matters when people choose to participate in a less public one, even if they don&#8217;t personally recognize that they do so.</p>
<p>Lippman&#8217;s phantom public was something else though:  it was a public that elites claimed existed, in order to justify their actions, but which Lippman argued did not and could never exist.  The so-called omnicompetent individual who is a member of The Public and participates in all political decision making is a fantasy.  The alternative is multiple publics, each addressing its own issues&#8230; which is where Dewey took this debate. So in terms of FOSS, its similarly dangerous to assume that everyone who participates in a recursive public needs to be a programmer with wicked hacking skills&#8230; that&#8217;s a repeat of the myth of the omnicompetent citizen.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bernard Geoghegan</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-11431</link>
		<dc:creator>Zbigniew Lukasiak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 12:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-11431</guid>
		<description>Maybe it&#039;s nothing important but in the spirit of Open Source I would like to remark that at paragraph 34 page 14 - the word &#039;perl&#039; (which in this version means the interpreter installed at a particular machine) should be &#039;Perl&#039; (which means the Perl programming language). See: http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe it&#8217;s nothing important but in the spirit of Open Source I would like to remark that at paragraph 34 page 14 &#8211; the word &#8216;perl&#8217; (which in this version means the interpreter installed at a particular machine) should be &#8216;Perl&#8217; (which means the Perl programming language). See: <a href="http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f" rel="nofollow">http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f</a></p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comments on: Introduction</title>
	<atom:link href="http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link></link>
	<description>Discuss.</description>
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		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129402</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 17:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129402</guid>
		<description>Yes, I think the point is that geeks are especially suspicious of attempts by any one entity to create a &quot;level playing field&quot; and see it (perhaps too cynically) as one more strategic move in a game to own standards, systems, platforms, formats, etc.  So the core idea of a recursive public is a system so open, and so recursively modifiable that the game always remains open to new entrants and new plays--and that it is this very openness that levels the playing field, not any one entity or any one rationality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I think the point is that geeks are especially suspicious of attempts by any one entity to create a &#8220;level playing field&#8221; and see it (perhaps too cynically) as one more strategic move in a game to own standards, systems, platforms, formats, etc.  So the core idea of a recursive public is a system so open, and so recursively modifiable that the game always remains open to new entrants and new plays&#8211;and that it is this very openness that levels the playing field, not any one entity or any one rationality.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel Kahn Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129130</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Kahn Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:59:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129130</guid>
		<description>i think obsessive archiving is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  While some of it is probably due to &quot;archival hubris&quot;, i think that much of it is actually due to a pervasive fear of screwups, fear of forgetfulness, and in search of the goals of modifiability and flexibility that you outline elsewhere in the book.

In particular, during discussions, arguments and planning processes, there&#039;s a sense of concern that any given decision made today may turn out to be the wrong decision, or may in the future be made in a different way.  Obsessive archiving mitigates the possibility that future decision-makers will be perplexed by the outcome of the process, and will remind them (if they care to read) of the rationales we had in mind when we were coming to terms with the decision we were making.  If the context of the decision turns out to be no longer relevant in 5 years, then reversing the outcome of the decision is no big deal.  But if there were subtle nuances in rationale that are still relevant, an attempt to reverse the outcome can be more easily rebutted.

Also, obsessive archiving (along with an explicit or implicit faith in the power of mechanized search) is seen as a time-saver -- if we can have the discussion with each other in the public, then no one needs to spend any extra time writing or fact-checking minutes, summaries, etc.

This doesn&#039;t work out all the time, so summaries are still needed for some monstrous discussions, or particularly high-bandwidth topics (see, for example, &lt;a href=&quot;http://lwn.net/Kernel/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jon Corbet&#039;s ongoing summaries&lt;/a&gt; of Linux kernel development).  But for smaller discussions and projects, the original archives themselves are a more effective use of limited collaborator hours than preparing and publishing synopses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think obsessive archiving is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  While some of it is probably due to &#8220;archival hubris&#8221;, i think that much of it is actually due to a pervasive fear of screwups, fear of forgetfulness, and in search of the goals of modifiability and flexibility that you outline elsewhere in the book.</p>
<p>In particular, during discussions, arguments and planning processes, there&#8217;s a sense of concern that any given decision made today may turn out to be the wrong decision, or may in the future be made in a different way.  Obsessive archiving mitigates the possibility that future decision-makers will be perplexed by the outcome of the process, and will remind them (if they care to read) of the rationales we had in mind when we were coming to terms with the decision we were making.  If the context of the decision turns out to be no longer relevant in 5 years, then reversing the outcome of the decision is no big deal.  But if there were subtle nuances in rationale that are still relevant, an attempt to reverse the outcome can be more easily rebutted.</p>
<p>Also, obsessive archiving (along with an explicit or implicit faith in the power of mechanized search) is seen as a time-saver &#8212; if we can have the discussion with each other in the public, then no one needs to spend any extra time writing or fact-checking minutes, summaries, etc.</p>
<p>This doesn&#8217;t work out all the time, so summaries are still needed for some monstrous discussions, or particularly high-bandwidth topics (see, for example, <a href="http://lwn.net/Kernel/" rel="nofollow">Jon Corbet&#8217;s ongoing summaries</a> of Linux kernel development).  But for smaller discussions and projects, the original archives themselves are a more effective use of limited collaborator hours than preparing and publishing synopses.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel Kahn Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129124</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Kahn Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129124</guid>
		<description>nit picking: &quot;level it to their advantage&quot; (used twice in this paragraph) doesn&#039;t make a lot of sense -- to level a playing field is to remove any intrinsic advantage for one player or another.  it seems jarring, unless the point you&#039;re trying to make here is that the act of leveling itself is intrinsically impossible, or that hidden biases are implicit in any act of &quot;leveling&quot;.

&quot;bias it to their advantage&quot; might be better, or maybe &quot;tilt it to their advantage&quot; (which keeps the metaphor alive a bit longer).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nit picking: &#8220;level it to their advantage&#8221; (used twice in this paragraph) doesn&#8217;t make a lot of sense &#8212; to level a playing field is to remove any intrinsic advantage for one player or another.  it seems jarring, unless the point you&#8217;re trying to make here is that the act of leveling itself is intrinsically impossible, or that hidden biases are implicit in any act of &#8220;leveling&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;bias it to their advantage&#8221; might be better, or maybe &#8220;tilt it to their advantage&#8221; (which keeps the metaphor alive a bit longer).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-21315</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-21315</guid>
		<description>@jennifer

Absolutely.  Second Life and fan fiction are both great examples to explore in this context.  With second life, the key difference is that Linden Labs has absolute authority over what happens there... but beyond that, certain elements of free software practices are central to second lifers understanding of what they create.

Fan fiction is an even better example because of the way it liberates not just texts or material copies, but characters, plots, situations.  Fan-subbing in anime i another good example.  Here the key difference is the quasi-legality of it.  Free software has figured out a way to create a legal commons that opts out of corporate provision of software... fan fiction and fan subbing exist in uneasy relation to that same corporate provision: they need it to feed their understanding and inhabitation of their worlds, but they deconstruct it and make it public at the same time.  I hope it&#039;s clear that I think using free software as a template for asking about the practices involved in either case is a way of trying to make more precise what makes a public, and what makes publics valuable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@jennifer</p>
<p>Absolutely.  Second Life and fan fiction are both great examples to explore in this context.  With second life, the key difference is that Linden Labs has absolute authority over what happens there&#8230; but beyond that, certain elements of free software practices are central to second lifers understanding of what they create.</p>
<p>Fan fiction is an even better example because of the way it liberates not just texts or material copies, but characters, plots, situations.  Fan-subbing in anime i another good example.  Here the key difference is the quasi-legality of it.  Free software has figured out a way to create a legal commons that opts out of corporate provision of software&#8230; fan fiction and fan subbing exist in uneasy relation to that same corporate provision: they need it to feed their understanding and inhabitation of their worlds, but they deconstruct it and make it public at the same time.  I hope it&#8217;s clear that I think using free software as a template for asking about the practices involved in either case is a way of trying to make more precise what makes a public, and what makes publics valuable.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jennifer Terrell</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-21310</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer Terrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 22:18:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-21310</guid>
		<description>Hello Dr. Kelty,

I am thinking about how one would apply your concept of recursive public to other groups who may, like free software geeks, be difficult to frame. A key concept for recursive public that you set forth is the generation and modification of infrastructure of the group. To what extent can one be liberal with concepts of infrastructure? Thinking about modifiability reminds me of many groups who play with the world they are in, be it a literary world or a virtual world such as second life. Building infrastructure for free software geeks at times literally means coding their world, but can we say that fans who write fan fiction are also crafting their world through the modification of literary canon? Are residents of second life who work to build virtual products and building structures and thus create the second life landscape also maintaining their infrastructure? In this sense can we apply the recursive public framework to these groups as well?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Dr. Kelty,</p>
<p>I am thinking about how one would apply your concept of recursive public to other groups who may, like free software geeks, be difficult to frame. A key concept for recursive public that you set forth is the generation and modification of infrastructure of the group. To what extent can one be liberal with concepts of infrastructure? Thinking about modifiability reminds me of many groups who play with the world they are in, be it a literary world or a virtual world such as second life. Building infrastructure for free software geeks at times literally means coding their world, but can we say that fans who write fan fiction are also crafting their world through the modification of literary canon? Are residents of second life who work to build virtual products and building structures and thus create the second life landscape also maintaining their infrastructure? In this sense can we apply the recursive public framework to these groups as well?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Zbigniew Lukasiak</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-11431</link>
		<dc:creator>Zbigniew Lukasiak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 12:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-11431</guid>
		<description>Maybe it&#039;s nothing important but in the spirit of Open Source I would like to remark that at paragraph 34 page 14 - the word &#039;perl&#039; (which in this version means the interpreter installed at a particular machine) should be &#039;Perl&#039; (which means the Perl programming language). See: http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe it&#8217;s nothing important but in the spirit of Open Source I would like to remark that at paragraph 34 page 14 &#8211; the word &#8216;perl&#8217; (which in this version means the interpreter installed at a particular machine) should be &#8216;Perl&#8217; (which means the Perl programming language). See: <a href="http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f" rel="nofollow">http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5315</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5315</guid>
		<description>@Javier
I wouldn&#039;t necessarily include downloading TV programs unless it involved freely licensed TV programs (like DemocracyTV/Miro).  Otherwise the reality is that though I agree with you ethically, it is still illegal to download and watch the TV programs.

What&#039;s worse though is that it is illegal for you to do something productive and valuable, like add english subtitles to a spanish program and re-distribute it.  Free Culture advocates would argue that this kind of consumer participation should not be criminalized, and I would agree.  

re: culture... not sure I can answer your question here.  I tried to avoid using the term as much as possible, but when I do use it, I use it to refer to the former definition you give--that of a totality of economic, behavioral, technical, aesthetic and so on, rules and norms that produce a sense of affinity or kinship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Javier<br />
I wouldn&#8217;t necessarily include downloading TV programs unless it involved freely licensed TV programs (like DemocracyTV/Miro).  Otherwise the reality is that though I agree with you ethically, it is still illegal to download and watch the TV programs.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s worse though is that it is illegal for you to do something productive and valuable, like add english subtitles to a spanish program and re-distribute it.  Free Culture advocates would argue that this kind of consumer participation should not be criminalized, and I would agree.  </p>
<p>re: culture&#8230; not sure I can answer your question here.  I tried to avoid using the term as much as possible, but when I do use it, I use it to refer to the former definition you give&#8211;that of a totality of economic, behavioral, technical, aesthetic and so on, rules and norms that produce a sense of affinity or kinship.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5314</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5314</guid>
		<description>There is a lot of potentiality in the notion of recursive publics:  certainly users who merely read a connexions module (or people who just use free software, rather than modifying it) are by all means contributing to the actuality of a recursive public.  What constitutes the core of this participation is the sense, at bottom, that one could always change, extend, modify, or re-use this material, software and infrastructure, if the world changed around us. Or if Connexions decided to become evil and corporate, we could take our learning materials with us and set up Connexions2, or some other project.

What&#039;s more, the ability to apprentice and to develop the elite skills necessary to carry forward such a project is also supposed to be open to anyone (i.e. there is no authority that decides who will be the FOSS elite or the Connexions elite), so this lay reading public has the option to become expert if they choose.  Contrast that with science, or newspaper-writing/reading or other activities constituted around closed groups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a lot of potentiality in the notion of recursive publics:  certainly users who merely read a connexions module (or people who just use free software, rather than modifying it) are by all means contributing to the actuality of a recursive public.  What constitutes the core of this participation is the sense, at bottom, that one could always change, extend, modify, or re-use this material, software and infrastructure, if the world changed around us. Or if Connexions decided to become evil and corporate, we could take our learning materials with us and set up Connexions2, or some other project.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s more, the ability to apprentice and to develop the elite skills necessary to carry forward such a project is also supposed to be open to anyone (i.e. there is no authority that decides who will be the FOSS elite or the Connexions elite), so this lay reading public has the option to become expert if they choose.  Contrast that with science, or newspaper-writing/reading or other activities constituted around closed groups.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5313</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5313</guid>
		<description>In a technical sense, or technical-religious sense, FOSS contributors see their work as part of the infrastructure that everyone uses, whether or not they notice (the internet runs on free software).  In that sense, this spectral user group is a public unaware of its own salvation by FOSS, and that is consistent with the predominantly protestant, calvinist especially, style of thinking among FOSS programmers--that you can be saved without knowing it.  

Wikipedia, or better Facebook and MySpace, are examples that might stand up better to this question, because they are not really that elite... and yet only Wikipedia would qualify as Free Software in my terms.  So yes, the public is divided here, and will continue to be so... but it isn&#039;t because of technical access or elitism  per se a la Robins or Webster... it is because of technical and legal choices that were made by Facebook and MySpace... or to put it differently, there are simply more and less public forms of technology, and it matters when people choose to participate in a less public one, even if they don&#039;t personally recognize that they do so.

Lippman&#039;s phantom public was something else though:  it was a public that elites claimed existed, in order to justify their actions, but which Lippman argued did not and could never exist.  The so-called omnicompetent individual who is a member of The Public and participates in all political decision making is a fantasy.  The alternative is multiple publics, each addressing its own issues... which is where Dewey took this debate. So in terms of FOSS, its similarly dangerous to assume that everyone who participates in a recursive public needs to be a programmer with wicked hacking skills... that&#039;s a repeat of the myth of the omnicompetent citizen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a technical sense, or technical-religious sense, FOSS contributors see their work as part of the infrastructure that everyone uses, whether or not they notice (the internet runs on free software).  In that sense, this spectral user group is a public unaware of its own salvation by FOSS, and that is consistent with the predominantly protestant, calvinist especially, style of thinking among FOSS programmers&#8211;that you can be saved without knowing it.  </p>
<p>Wikipedia, or better Facebook and MySpace, are examples that might stand up better to this question, because they are not really that elite&#8230; and yet only Wikipedia would qualify as Free Software in my terms.  So yes, the public is divided here, and will continue to be so&#8230; but it isn&#8217;t because of technical access or elitism  per se a la Robins or Webster&#8230; it is because of technical and legal choices that were made by Facebook and MySpace&#8230; or to put it differently, there are simply more and less public forms of technology, and it matters when people choose to participate in a less public one, even if they don&#8217;t personally recognize that they do so.</p>
<p>Lippman&#8217;s phantom public was something else though:  it was a public that elites claimed existed, in order to justify their actions, but which Lippman argued did not and could never exist.  The so-called omnicompetent individual who is a member of The Public and participates in all political decision making is a fantasy.  The alternative is multiple publics, each addressing its own issues&#8230; which is where Dewey took this debate. So in terms of FOSS, its similarly dangerous to assume that everyone who participates in a recursive public needs to be a programmer with wicked hacking skills&#8230; that&#8217;s a repeat of the myth of the omnicompetent citizen.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bernard Geoghegan</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5315</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5315</guid>
		<description>@Javier
I wouldn&#039;t necessarily include downloading TV programs unless it involved freely licensed TV programs (like DemocracyTV/Miro).  Otherwise the reality is that though I agree with you ethically, it is still illegal to download and watch the TV programs.

What&#039;s worse though is that it is illegal for you to do something productive and valuable, like add english subtitles to a spanish program and re-distribute it.  Free Culture advocates would argue that this kind of consumer participation should not be criminalized, and I would agree.  

re: culture... not sure I can answer your question here.  I tried to avoid using the term as much as possible, but when I do use it, I use it to refer to the former definition you give--that of a totality of economic, behavioral, technical, aesthetic and so on, rules and norms that produce a sense of affinity or kinship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Javier<br />
I wouldn&#8217;t necessarily include downloading TV programs unless it involved freely licensed TV programs (like DemocracyTV/Miro).  Otherwise the reality is that though I agree with you ethically, it is still illegal to download and watch the TV programs.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s worse though is that it is illegal for you to do something productive and valuable, like add english subtitles to a spanish program and re-distribute it.  Free Culture advocates would argue that this kind of consumer participation should not be criminalized, and I would agree.  </p>
<p>re: culture&#8230; not sure I can answer your question here.  I tried to avoid using the term as much as possible, but when I do use it, I use it to refer to the former definition you give&#8211;that of a totality of economic, behavioral, technical, aesthetic and so on, rules and norms that produce a sense of affinity or kinship.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>Comments on: Introduction</title>
	<atom:link href="http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link></link>
	<description>Discuss.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 13:27:10 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129402</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 17:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129402</guid>
		<description>Yes, I think the point is that geeks are especially suspicious of attempts by any one entity to create a &quot;level playing field&quot; and see it (perhaps too cynically) as one more strategic move in a game to own standards, systems, platforms, formats, etc.  So the core idea of a recursive public is a system so open, and so recursively modifiable that the game always remains open to new entrants and new plays--and that it is this very openness that levels the playing field, not any one entity or any one rationality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I think the point is that geeks are especially suspicious of attempts by any one entity to create a &#8220;level playing field&#8221; and see it (perhaps too cynically) as one more strategic move in a game to own standards, systems, platforms, formats, etc.  So the core idea of a recursive public is a system so open, and so recursively modifiable that the game always remains open to new entrants and new plays&#8211;and that it is this very openness that levels the playing field, not any one entity or any one rationality.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel Kahn Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129130</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Kahn Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:59:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129130</guid>
		<description>i think obsessive archiving is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  While some of it is probably due to &quot;archival hubris&quot;, i think that much of it is actually due to a pervasive fear of screwups, fear of forgetfulness, and in search of the goals of modifiability and flexibility that you outline elsewhere in the book.

In particular, during discussions, arguments and planning processes, there&#039;s a sense of concern that any given decision made today may turn out to be the wrong decision, or may in the future be made in a different way.  Obsessive archiving mitigates the possibility that future decision-makers will be perplexed by the outcome of the process, and will remind them (if they care to read) of the rationales we had in mind when we were coming to terms with the decision we were making.  If the context of the decision turns out to be no longer relevant in 5 years, then reversing the outcome of the decision is no big deal.  But if there were subtle nuances in rationale that are still relevant, an attempt to reverse the outcome can be more easily rebutted.

Also, obsessive archiving (along with an explicit or implicit faith in the power of mechanized search) is seen as a time-saver -- if we can have the discussion with each other in the public, then no one needs to spend any extra time writing or fact-checking minutes, summaries, etc.

This doesn&#039;t work out all the time, so summaries are still needed for some monstrous discussions, or particularly high-bandwidth topics (see, for example, &lt;a href=&quot;http://lwn.net/Kernel/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jon Corbet&#039;s ongoing summaries&lt;/a&gt; of Linux kernel development).  But for smaller discussions and projects, the original archives themselves are a more effective use of limited collaborator hours than preparing and publishing synopses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think obsessive archiving is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  While some of it is probably due to &#8220;archival hubris&#8221;, i think that much of it is actually due to a pervasive fear of screwups, fear of forgetfulness, and in search of the goals of modifiability and flexibility that you outline elsewhere in the book.</p>
<p>In particular, during discussions, arguments and planning processes, there&#8217;s a sense of concern that any given decision made today may turn out to be the wrong decision, or may in the future be made in a different way.  Obsessive archiving mitigates the possibility that future decision-makers will be perplexed by the outcome of the process, and will remind them (if they care to read) of the rationales we had in mind when we were coming to terms with the decision we were making.  If the context of the decision turns out to be no longer relevant in 5 years, then reversing the outcome of the decision is no big deal.  But if there were subtle nuances in rationale that are still relevant, an attempt to reverse the outcome can be more easily rebutted.</p>
<p>Also, obsessive archiving (along with an explicit or implicit faith in the power of mechanized search) is seen as a time-saver &#8212; if we can have the discussion with each other in the public, then no one needs to spend any extra time writing or fact-checking minutes, summaries, etc.</p>
<p>This doesn&#8217;t work out all the time, so summaries are still needed for some monstrous discussions, or particularly high-bandwidth topics (see, for example, <a href="http://lwn.net/Kernel/" rel="nofollow">Jon Corbet&#8217;s ongoing summaries</a> of Linux kernel development).  But for smaller discussions and projects, the original archives themselves are a more effective use of limited collaborator hours than preparing and publishing synopses.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel Kahn Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129124</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Kahn Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129124</guid>
		<description>nit picking: &quot;level it to their advantage&quot; (used twice in this paragraph) doesn&#039;t make a lot of sense -- to level a playing field is to remove any intrinsic advantage for one player or another.  it seems jarring, unless the point you&#039;re trying to make here is that the act of leveling itself is intrinsically impossible, or that hidden biases are implicit in any act of &quot;leveling&quot;.

&quot;bias it to their advantage&quot; might be better, or maybe &quot;tilt it to their advantage&quot; (which keeps the metaphor alive a bit longer).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nit picking: &#8220;level it to their advantage&#8221; (used twice in this paragraph) doesn&#8217;t make a lot of sense &#8212; to level a playing field is to remove any intrinsic advantage for one player or another.  it seems jarring, unless the point you&#8217;re trying to make here is that the act of leveling itself is intrinsically impossible, or that hidden biases are implicit in any act of &#8220;leveling&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;bias it to their advantage&#8221; might be better, or maybe &#8220;tilt it to their advantage&#8221; (which keeps the metaphor alive a bit longer).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-21315</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-21315</guid>
		<description>@jennifer

Absolutely.  Second Life and fan fiction are both great examples to explore in this context.  With second life, the key difference is that Linden Labs has absolute authority over what happens there... but beyond that, certain elements of free software practices are central to second lifers understanding of what they create.

Fan fiction is an even better example because of the way it liberates not just texts or material copies, but characters, plots, situations.  Fan-subbing in anime i another good example.  Here the key difference is the quasi-legality of it.  Free software has figured out a way to create a legal commons that opts out of corporate provision of software... fan fiction and fan subbing exist in uneasy relation to that same corporate provision: they need it to feed their understanding and inhabitation of their worlds, but they deconstruct it and make it public at the same time.  I hope it&#039;s clear that I think using free software as a template for asking about the practices involved in either case is a way of trying to make more precise what makes a public, and what makes publics valuable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@jennifer</p>
<p>Absolutely.  Second Life and fan fiction are both great examples to explore in this context.  With second life, the key difference is that Linden Labs has absolute authority over what happens there&#8230; but beyond that, certain elements of free software practices are central to second lifers understanding of what they create.</p>
<p>Fan fiction is an even better example because of the way it liberates not just texts or material copies, but characters, plots, situations.  Fan-subbing in anime i another good example.  Here the key difference is the quasi-legality of it.  Free software has figured out a way to create a legal commons that opts out of corporate provision of software&#8230; fan fiction and fan subbing exist in uneasy relation to that same corporate provision: they need it to feed their understanding and inhabitation of their worlds, but they deconstruct it and make it public at the same time.  I hope it&#8217;s clear that I think using free software as a template for asking about the practices involved in either case is a way of trying to make more precise what makes a public, and what makes publics valuable.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jennifer Terrell</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-21310</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer Terrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 22:18:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-21310</guid>
		<description>Hello Dr. Kelty,

I am thinking about how one would apply your concept of recursive public to other groups who may, like free software geeks, be difficult to frame. A key concept for recursive public that you set forth is the generation and modification of infrastructure of the group. To what extent can one be liberal with concepts of infrastructure? Thinking about modifiability reminds me of many groups who play with the world they are in, be it a literary world or a virtual world such as second life. Building infrastructure for free software geeks at times literally means coding their world, but can we say that fans who write fan fiction are also crafting their world through the modification of literary canon? Are residents of second life who work to build virtual products and building structures and thus create the second life landscape also maintaining their infrastructure? In this sense can we apply the recursive public framework to these groups as well?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Dr. Kelty,</p>
<p>I am thinking about how one would apply your concept of recursive public to other groups who may, like free software geeks, be difficult to frame. A key concept for recursive public that you set forth is the generation and modification of infrastructure of the group. To what extent can one be liberal with concepts of infrastructure? Thinking about modifiability reminds me of many groups who play with the world they are in, be it a literary world or a virtual world such as second life. Building infrastructure for free software geeks at times literally means coding their world, but can we say that fans who write fan fiction are also crafting their world through the modification of literary canon? Are residents of second life who work to build virtual products and building structures and thus create the second life landscape also maintaining their infrastructure? In this sense can we apply the recursive public framework to these groups as well?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Zbigniew Lukasiak</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-11431</link>
		<dc:creator>Zbigniew Lukasiak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 12:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-11431</guid>
		<description>Maybe it&#039;s nothing important but in the spirit of Open Source I would like to remark that at paragraph 34 page 14 - the word &#039;perl&#039; (which in this version means the interpreter installed at a particular machine) should be &#039;Perl&#039; (which means the Perl programming language). See: http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe it&#8217;s nothing important but in the spirit of Open Source I would like to remark that at paragraph 34 page 14 &#8211; the word &#8216;perl&#8217; (which in this version means the interpreter installed at a particular machine) should be &#8216;Perl&#8217; (which means the Perl programming language). See: <a href="http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f" rel="nofollow">http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5315</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5315</guid>
		<description>@Javier
I wouldn&#039;t necessarily include downloading TV programs unless it involved freely licensed TV programs (like DemocracyTV/Miro).  Otherwise the reality is that though I agree with you ethically, it is still illegal to download and watch the TV programs.

What&#039;s worse though is that it is illegal for you to do something productive and valuable, like add english subtitles to a spanish program and re-distribute it.  Free Culture advocates would argue that this kind of consumer participation should not be criminalized, and I would agree.  

re: culture... not sure I can answer your question here.  I tried to avoid using the term as much as possible, but when I do use it, I use it to refer to the former definition you give--that of a totality of economic, behavioral, technical, aesthetic and so on, rules and norms that produce a sense of affinity or kinship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Javier<br />
I wouldn&#8217;t necessarily include downloading TV programs unless it involved freely licensed TV programs (like DemocracyTV/Miro).  Otherwise the reality is that though I agree with you ethically, it is still illegal to download and watch the TV programs.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s worse though is that it is illegal for you to do something productive and valuable, like add english subtitles to a spanish program and re-distribute it.  Free Culture advocates would argue that this kind of consumer participation should not be criminalized, and I would agree.  </p>
<p>re: culture&#8230; not sure I can answer your question here.  I tried to avoid using the term as much as possible, but when I do use it, I use it to refer to the former definition you give&#8211;that of a totality of economic, behavioral, technical, aesthetic and so on, rules and norms that produce a sense of affinity or kinship.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5314</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5314</guid>
		<description>There is a lot of potentiality in the notion of recursive publics:  certainly users who merely read a connexions module (or people who just use free software, rather than modifying it) are by all means contributing to the actuality of a recursive public.  What constitutes the core of this participation is the sense, at bottom, that one could always change, extend, modify, or re-use this material, software and infrastructure, if the world changed around us. Or if Connexions decided to become evil and corporate, we could take our learning materials with us and set up Connexions2, or some other project.

What&#039;s more, the ability to apprentice and to develop the elite skills necessary to carry forward such a project is also supposed to be open to anyone (i.e. there is no authority that decides who will be the FOSS elite or the Connexions elite), so this lay reading public has the option to become expert if they choose.  Contrast that with science, or newspaper-writing/reading or other activities constituted around closed groups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a lot of potentiality in the notion of recursive publics:  certainly users who merely read a connexions module (or people who just use free software, rather than modifying it) are by all means contributing to the actuality of a recursive public.  What constitutes the core of this participation is the sense, at bottom, that one could always change, extend, modify, or re-use this material, software and infrastructure, if the world changed around us. Or if Connexions decided to become evil and corporate, we could take our learning materials with us and set up Connexions2, or some other project.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s more, the ability to apprentice and to develop the elite skills necessary to carry forward such a project is also supposed to be open to anyone (i.e. there is no authority that decides who will be the FOSS elite or the Connexions elite), so this lay reading public has the option to become expert if they choose.  Contrast that with science, or newspaper-writing/reading or other activities constituted around closed groups.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5313</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5313</guid>
		<description>In a technical sense, or technical-religious sense, FOSS contributors see their work as part of the infrastructure that everyone uses, whether or not they notice (the internet runs on free software).  In that sense, this spectral user group is a public unaware of its own salvation by FOSS, and that is consistent with the predominantly protestant, calvinist especially, style of thinking among FOSS programmers--that you can be saved without knowing it.  

Wikipedia, or better Facebook and MySpace, are examples that might stand up better to this question, because they are not really that elite... and yet only Wikipedia would qualify as Free Software in my terms.  So yes, the public is divided here, and will continue to be so... but it isn&#039;t because of technical access or elitism  per se a la Robins or Webster... it is because of technical and legal choices that were made by Facebook and MySpace... or to put it differently, there are simply more and less public forms of technology, and it matters when people choose to participate in a less public one, even if they don&#039;t personally recognize that they do so.

Lippman&#039;s phantom public was something else though:  it was a public that elites claimed existed, in order to justify their actions, but which Lippman argued did not and could never exist.  The so-called omnicompetent individual who is a member of The Public and participates in all political decision making is a fantasy.  The alternative is multiple publics, each addressing its own issues... which is where Dewey took this debate. So in terms of FOSS, its similarly dangerous to assume that everyone who participates in a recursive public needs to be a programmer with wicked hacking skills... that&#039;s a repeat of the myth of the omnicompetent citizen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a technical sense, or technical-religious sense, FOSS contributors see their work as part of the infrastructure that everyone uses, whether or not they notice (the internet runs on free software).  In that sense, this spectral user group is a public unaware of its own salvation by FOSS, and that is consistent with the predominantly protestant, calvinist especially, style of thinking among FOSS programmers&#8211;that you can be saved without knowing it.  </p>
<p>Wikipedia, or better Facebook and MySpace, are examples that might stand up better to this question, because they are not really that elite&#8230; and yet only Wikipedia would qualify as Free Software in my terms.  So yes, the public is divided here, and will continue to be so&#8230; but it isn&#8217;t because of technical access or elitism  per se a la Robins or Webster&#8230; it is because of technical and legal choices that were made by Facebook and MySpace&#8230; or to put it differently, there are simply more and less public forms of technology, and it matters when people choose to participate in a less public one, even if they don&#8217;t personally recognize that they do so.</p>
<p>Lippman&#8217;s phantom public was something else though:  it was a public that elites claimed existed, in order to justify their actions, but which Lippman argued did not and could never exist.  The so-called omnicompetent individual who is a member of The Public and participates in all political decision making is a fantasy.  The alternative is multiple publics, each addressing its own issues&#8230; which is where Dewey took this debate. So in terms of FOSS, its similarly dangerous to assume that everyone who participates in a recursive public needs to be a programmer with wicked hacking skills&#8230; that&#8217;s a repeat of the myth of the omnicompetent citizen.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Bernard Geoghegan</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5314</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5314</guid>
		<description>There is a lot of potentiality in the notion of recursive publics:  certainly users who merely read a connexions module (or people who just use free software, rather than modifying it) are by all means contributing to the actuality of a recursive public.  What constitutes the core of this participation is the sense, at bottom, that one could always change, extend, modify, or re-use this material, software and infrastructure, if the world changed around us. Or if Connexions decided to become evil and corporate, we could take our learning materials with us and set up Connexions2, or some other project.

What&#039;s more, the ability to apprentice and to develop the elite skills necessary to carry forward such a project is also supposed to be open to anyone (i.e. there is no authority that decides who will be the FOSS elite or the Connexions elite), so this lay reading public has the option to become expert if they choose.  Contrast that with science, or newspaper-writing/reading or other activities constituted around closed groups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a lot of potentiality in the notion of recursive publics:  certainly users who merely read a connexions module (or people who just use free software, rather than modifying it) are by all means contributing to the actuality of a recursive public.  What constitutes the core of this participation is the sense, at bottom, that one could always change, extend, modify, or re-use this material, software and infrastructure, if the world changed around us. Or if Connexions decided to become evil and corporate, we could take our learning materials with us and set up Connexions2, or some other project.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s more, the ability to apprentice and to develop the elite skills necessary to carry forward such a project is also supposed to be open to anyone (i.e. there is no authority that decides who will be the FOSS elite or the Connexions elite), so this lay reading public has the option to become expert if they choose.  Contrast that with science, or newspaper-writing/reading or other activities constituted around closed groups.</p>
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		<title>Comments on: Introduction</title>
	<atom:link href="http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link></link>
	<description>Discuss.</description>
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		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129402</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 17:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129402</guid>
		<description>Yes, I think the point is that geeks are especially suspicious of attempts by any one entity to create a &quot;level playing field&quot; and see it (perhaps too cynically) as one more strategic move in a game to own standards, systems, platforms, formats, etc.  So the core idea of a recursive public is a system so open, and so recursively modifiable that the game always remains open to new entrants and new plays--and that it is this very openness that levels the playing field, not any one entity or any one rationality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I think the point is that geeks are especially suspicious of attempts by any one entity to create a &#8220;level playing field&#8221; and see it (perhaps too cynically) as one more strategic move in a game to own standards, systems, platforms, formats, etc.  So the core idea of a recursive public is a system so open, and so recursively modifiable that the game always remains open to new entrants and new plays&#8211;and that it is this very openness that levels the playing field, not any one entity or any one rationality.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Kahn Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129130</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Kahn Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:59:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129130</guid>
		<description>i think obsessive archiving is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  While some of it is probably due to &quot;archival hubris&quot;, i think that much of it is actually due to a pervasive fear of screwups, fear of forgetfulness, and in search of the goals of modifiability and flexibility that you outline elsewhere in the book.

In particular, during discussions, arguments and planning processes, there&#039;s a sense of concern that any given decision made today may turn out to be the wrong decision, or may in the future be made in a different way.  Obsessive archiving mitigates the possibility that future decision-makers will be perplexed by the outcome of the process, and will remind them (if they care to read) of the rationales we had in mind when we were coming to terms with the decision we were making.  If the context of the decision turns out to be no longer relevant in 5 years, then reversing the outcome of the decision is no big deal.  But if there were subtle nuances in rationale that are still relevant, an attempt to reverse the outcome can be more easily rebutted.

Also, obsessive archiving (along with an explicit or implicit faith in the power of mechanized search) is seen as a time-saver -- if we can have the discussion with each other in the public, then no one needs to spend any extra time writing or fact-checking minutes, summaries, etc.

This doesn&#039;t work out all the time, so summaries are still needed for some monstrous discussions, or particularly high-bandwidth topics (see, for example, &lt;a href=&quot;http://lwn.net/Kernel/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jon Corbet&#039;s ongoing summaries&lt;/a&gt; of Linux kernel development).  But for smaller discussions and projects, the original archives themselves are a more effective use of limited collaborator hours than preparing and publishing synopses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think obsessive archiving is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  While some of it is probably due to &#8220;archival hubris&#8221;, i think that much of it is actually due to a pervasive fear of screwups, fear of forgetfulness, and in search of the goals of modifiability and flexibility that you outline elsewhere in the book.</p>
<p>In particular, during discussions, arguments and planning processes, there&#8217;s a sense of concern that any given decision made today may turn out to be the wrong decision, or may in the future be made in a different way.  Obsessive archiving mitigates the possibility that future decision-makers will be perplexed by the outcome of the process, and will remind them (if they care to read) of the rationales we had in mind when we were coming to terms with the decision we were making.  If the context of the decision turns out to be no longer relevant in 5 years, then reversing the outcome of the decision is no big deal.  But if there were subtle nuances in rationale that are still relevant, an attempt to reverse the outcome can be more easily rebutted.</p>
<p>Also, obsessive archiving (along with an explicit or implicit faith in the power of mechanized search) is seen as a time-saver &#8212; if we can have the discussion with each other in the public, then no one needs to spend any extra time writing or fact-checking minutes, summaries, etc.</p>
<p>This doesn&#8217;t work out all the time, so summaries are still needed for some monstrous discussions, or particularly high-bandwidth topics (see, for example, <a href="http://lwn.net/Kernel/" rel="nofollow">Jon Corbet&#8217;s ongoing summaries</a> of Linux kernel development).  But for smaller discussions and projects, the original archives themselves are a more effective use of limited collaborator hours than preparing and publishing synopses.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel Kahn Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129124</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Kahn Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129124</guid>
		<description>nit picking: &quot;level it to their advantage&quot; (used twice in this paragraph) doesn&#039;t make a lot of sense -- to level a playing field is to remove any intrinsic advantage for one player or another.  it seems jarring, unless the point you&#039;re trying to make here is that the act of leveling itself is intrinsically impossible, or that hidden biases are implicit in any act of &quot;leveling&quot;.

&quot;bias it to their advantage&quot; might be better, or maybe &quot;tilt it to their advantage&quot; (which keeps the metaphor alive a bit longer).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nit picking: &#8220;level it to their advantage&#8221; (used twice in this paragraph) doesn&#8217;t make a lot of sense &#8212; to level a playing field is to remove any intrinsic advantage for one player or another.  it seems jarring, unless the point you&#8217;re trying to make here is that the act of leveling itself is intrinsically impossible, or that hidden biases are implicit in any act of &#8220;leveling&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;bias it to their advantage&#8221; might be better, or maybe &#8220;tilt it to their advantage&#8221; (which keeps the metaphor alive a bit longer).</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-21315</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-21315</guid>
		<description>@jennifer

Absolutely.  Second Life and fan fiction are both great examples to explore in this context.  With second life, the key difference is that Linden Labs has absolute authority over what happens there... but beyond that, certain elements of free software practices are central to second lifers understanding of what they create.

Fan fiction is an even better example because of the way it liberates not just texts or material copies, but characters, plots, situations.  Fan-subbing in anime i another good example.  Here the key difference is the quasi-legality of it.  Free software has figured out a way to create a legal commons that opts out of corporate provision of software... fan fiction and fan subbing exist in uneasy relation to that same corporate provision: they need it to feed their understanding and inhabitation of their worlds, but they deconstruct it and make it public at the same time.  I hope it&#039;s clear that I think using free software as a template for asking about the practices involved in either case is a way of trying to make more precise what makes a public, and what makes publics valuable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@jennifer</p>
<p>Absolutely.  Second Life and fan fiction are both great examples to explore in this context.  With second life, the key difference is that Linden Labs has absolute authority over what happens there&#8230; but beyond that, certain elements of free software practices are central to second lifers understanding of what they create.</p>
<p>Fan fiction is an even better example because of the way it liberates not just texts or material copies, but characters, plots, situations.  Fan-subbing in anime i another good example.  Here the key difference is the quasi-legality of it.  Free software has figured out a way to create a legal commons that opts out of corporate provision of software&#8230; fan fiction and fan subbing exist in uneasy relation to that same corporate provision: they need it to feed their understanding and inhabitation of their worlds, but they deconstruct it and make it public at the same time.  I hope it&#8217;s clear that I think using free software as a template for asking about the practices involved in either case is a way of trying to make more precise what makes a public, and what makes publics valuable.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jennifer Terrell</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-21310</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer Terrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 22:18:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-21310</guid>
		<description>Hello Dr. Kelty,

I am thinking about how one would apply your concept of recursive public to other groups who may, like free software geeks, be difficult to frame. A key concept for recursive public that you set forth is the generation and modification of infrastructure of the group. To what extent can one be liberal with concepts of infrastructure? Thinking about modifiability reminds me of many groups who play with the world they are in, be it a literary world or a virtual world such as second life. Building infrastructure for free software geeks at times literally means coding their world, but can we say that fans who write fan fiction are also crafting their world through the modification of literary canon? Are residents of second life who work to build virtual products and building structures and thus create the second life landscape also maintaining their infrastructure? In this sense can we apply the recursive public framework to these groups as well?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Dr. Kelty,</p>
<p>I am thinking about how one would apply your concept of recursive public to other groups who may, like free software geeks, be difficult to frame. A key concept for recursive public that you set forth is the generation and modification of infrastructure of the group. To what extent can one be liberal with concepts of infrastructure? Thinking about modifiability reminds me of many groups who play with the world they are in, be it a literary world or a virtual world such as second life. Building infrastructure for free software geeks at times literally means coding their world, but can we say that fans who write fan fiction are also crafting their world through the modification of literary canon? Are residents of second life who work to build virtual products and building structures and thus create the second life landscape also maintaining their infrastructure? In this sense can we apply the recursive public framework to these groups as well?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Zbigniew Lukasiak</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-11431</link>
		<dc:creator>Zbigniew Lukasiak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 12:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-11431</guid>
		<description>Maybe it&#039;s nothing important but in the spirit of Open Source I would like to remark that at paragraph 34 page 14 - the word &#039;perl&#039; (which in this version means the interpreter installed at a particular machine) should be &#039;Perl&#039; (which means the Perl programming language). See: http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe it&#8217;s nothing important but in the spirit of Open Source I would like to remark that at paragraph 34 page 14 &#8211; the word &#8216;perl&#8217; (which in this version means the interpreter installed at a particular machine) should be &#8216;Perl&#8217; (which means the Perl programming language). See: <a href="http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f" rel="nofollow">http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5315</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5315</guid>
		<description>@Javier
I wouldn&#039;t necessarily include downloading TV programs unless it involved freely licensed TV programs (like DemocracyTV/Miro).  Otherwise the reality is that though I agree with you ethically, it is still illegal to download and watch the TV programs.

What&#039;s worse though is that it is illegal for you to do something productive and valuable, like add english subtitles to a spanish program and re-distribute it.  Free Culture advocates would argue that this kind of consumer participation should not be criminalized, and I would agree.  

re: culture... not sure I can answer your question here.  I tried to avoid using the term as much as possible, but when I do use it, I use it to refer to the former definition you give--that of a totality of economic, behavioral, technical, aesthetic and so on, rules and norms that produce a sense of affinity or kinship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Javier<br />
I wouldn&#8217;t necessarily include downloading TV programs unless it involved freely licensed TV programs (like DemocracyTV/Miro).  Otherwise the reality is that though I agree with you ethically, it is still illegal to download and watch the TV programs.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s worse though is that it is illegal for you to do something productive and valuable, like add english subtitles to a spanish program and re-distribute it.  Free Culture advocates would argue that this kind of consumer participation should not be criminalized, and I would agree.  </p>
<p>re: culture&#8230; not sure I can answer your question here.  I tried to avoid using the term as much as possible, but when I do use it, I use it to refer to the former definition you give&#8211;that of a totality of economic, behavioral, technical, aesthetic and so on, rules and norms that produce a sense of affinity or kinship.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5314</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5314</guid>
		<description>There is a lot of potentiality in the notion of recursive publics:  certainly users who merely read a connexions module (or people who just use free software, rather than modifying it) are by all means contributing to the actuality of a recursive public.  What constitutes the core of this participation is the sense, at bottom, that one could always change, extend, modify, or re-use this material, software and infrastructure, if the world changed around us. Or if Connexions decided to become evil and corporate, we could take our learning materials with us and set up Connexions2, or some other project.

What&#039;s more, the ability to apprentice and to develop the elite skills necessary to carry forward such a project is also supposed to be open to anyone (i.e. there is no authority that decides who will be the FOSS elite or the Connexions elite), so this lay reading public has the option to become expert if they choose.  Contrast that with science, or newspaper-writing/reading or other activities constituted around closed groups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a lot of potentiality in the notion of recursive publics:  certainly users who merely read a connexions module (or people who just use free software, rather than modifying it) are by all means contributing to the actuality of a recursive public.  What constitutes the core of this participation is the sense, at bottom, that one could always change, extend, modify, or re-use this material, software and infrastructure, if the world changed around us. Or if Connexions decided to become evil and corporate, we could take our learning materials with us and set up Connexions2, or some other project.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s more, the ability to apprentice and to develop the elite skills necessary to carry forward such a project is also supposed to be open to anyone (i.e. there is no authority that decides who will be the FOSS elite or the Connexions elite), so this lay reading public has the option to become expert if they choose.  Contrast that with science, or newspaper-writing/reading or other activities constituted around closed groups.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5313</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5313</guid>
		<description>In a technical sense, or technical-religious sense, FOSS contributors see their work as part of the infrastructure that everyone uses, whether or not they notice (the internet runs on free software).  In that sense, this spectral user group is a public unaware of its own salvation by FOSS, and that is consistent with the predominantly protestant, calvinist especially, style of thinking among FOSS programmers--that you can be saved without knowing it.  

Wikipedia, or better Facebook and MySpace, are examples that might stand up better to this question, because they are not really that elite... and yet only Wikipedia would qualify as Free Software in my terms.  So yes, the public is divided here, and will continue to be so... but it isn&#039;t because of technical access or elitism  per se a la Robins or Webster... it is because of technical and legal choices that were made by Facebook and MySpace... or to put it differently, there are simply more and less public forms of technology, and it matters when people choose to participate in a less public one, even if they don&#039;t personally recognize that they do so.

Lippman&#039;s phantom public was something else though:  it was a public that elites claimed existed, in order to justify their actions, but which Lippman argued did not and could never exist.  The so-called omnicompetent individual who is a member of The Public and participates in all political decision making is a fantasy.  The alternative is multiple publics, each addressing its own issues... which is where Dewey took this debate. So in terms of FOSS, its similarly dangerous to assume that everyone who participates in a recursive public needs to be a programmer with wicked hacking skills... that&#039;s a repeat of the myth of the omnicompetent citizen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a technical sense, or technical-religious sense, FOSS contributors see their work as part of the infrastructure that everyone uses, whether or not they notice (the internet runs on free software).  In that sense, this spectral user group is a public unaware of its own salvation by FOSS, and that is consistent with the predominantly protestant, calvinist especially, style of thinking among FOSS programmers&#8211;that you can be saved without knowing it.  </p>
<p>Wikipedia, or better Facebook and MySpace, are examples that might stand up better to this question, because they are not really that elite&#8230; and yet only Wikipedia would qualify as Free Software in my terms.  So yes, the public is divided here, and will continue to be so&#8230; but it isn&#8217;t because of technical access or elitism  per se a la Robins or Webster&#8230; it is because of technical and legal choices that were made by Facebook and MySpace&#8230; or to put it differently, there are simply more and less public forms of technology, and it matters when people choose to participate in a less public one, even if they don&#8217;t personally recognize that they do so.</p>
<p>Lippman&#8217;s phantom public was something else though:  it was a public that elites claimed existed, in order to justify their actions, but which Lippman argued did not and could never exist.  The so-called omnicompetent individual who is a member of The Public and participates in all political decision making is a fantasy.  The alternative is multiple publics, each addressing its own issues&#8230; which is where Dewey took this debate. So in terms of FOSS, its similarly dangerous to assume that everyone who participates in a recursive public needs to be a programmer with wicked hacking skills&#8230; that&#8217;s a repeat of the myth of the omnicompetent citizen.</p>
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		<title>By: Bernard Geoghegan</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5313</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5313</guid>
		<description>In a technical sense, or technical-religious sense, FOSS contributors see their work as part of the infrastructure that everyone uses, whether or not they notice (the internet runs on free software).  In that sense, this spectral user group is a public unaware of its own salvation by FOSS, and that is consistent with the predominantly protestant, calvinist especially, style of thinking among FOSS programmers--that you can be saved without knowing it.  

Wikipedia, or better Facebook and MySpace, are examples that might stand up better to this question, because they are not really that elite... and yet only Wikipedia would qualify as Free Software in my terms.  So yes, the public is divided here, and will continue to be so... but it isn&#039;t because of technical access or elitism  per se a la Robins or Webster... it is because of technical and legal choices that were made by Facebook and MySpace... or to put it differently, there are simply more and less public forms of technology, and it matters when people choose to participate in a less public one, even if they don&#039;t personally recognize that they do so.

Lippman&#039;s phantom public was something else though:  it was a public that elites claimed existed, in order to justify their actions, but which Lippman argued did not and could never exist.  The so-called omnicompetent individual who is a member of The Public and participates in all political decision making is a fantasy.  The alternative is multiple publics, each addressing its own issues... which is where Dewey took this debate. So in terms of FOSS, its similarly dangerous to assume that everyone who participates in a recursive public needs to be a programmer with wicked hacking skills... that&#039;s a repeat of the myth of the omnicompetent citizen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a technical sense, or technical-religious sense, FOSS contributors see their work as part of the infrastructure that everyone uses, whether or not they notice (the internet runs on free software).  In that sense, this spectral user group is a public unaware of its own salvation by FOSS, and that is consistent with the predominantly protestant, calvinist especially, style of thinking among FOSS programmers&#8211;that you can be saved without knowing it.  </p>
<p>Wikipedia, or better Facebook and MySpace, are examples that might stand up better to this question, because they are not really that elite&#8230; and yet only Wikipedia would qualify as Free Software in my terms.  So yes, the public is divided here, and will continue to be so&#8230; but it isn&#8217;t because of technical access or elitism  per se a la Robins or Webster&#8230; it is because of technical and legal choices that were made by Facebook and MySpace&#8230; or to put it differently, there are simply more and less public forms of technology, and it matters when people choose to participate in a less public one, even if they don&#8217;t personally recognize that they do so.</p>
<p>Lippman&#8217;s phantom public was something else though:  it was a public that elites claimed existed, in order to justify their actions, but which Lippman argued did not and could never exist.  The so-called omnicompetent individual who is a member of The Public and participates in all political decision making is a fantasy.  The alternative is multiple publics, each addressing its own issues&#8230; which is where Dewey took this debate. So in terms of FOSS, its similarly dangerous to assume that everyone who participates in a recursive public needs to be a programmer with wicked hacking skills&#8230; that&#8217;s a repeat of the myth of the omnicompetent citizen.</p>
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		<title>Comments on: Introduction</title>
	<atom:link href="http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
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	<description>Discuss.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 13:27:10 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129402</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 17:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129402</guid>
		<description>Yes, I think the point is that geeks are especially suspicious of attempts by any one entity to create a &quot;level playing field&quot; and see it (perhaps too cynically) as one more strategic move in a game to own standards, systems, platforms, formats, etc.  So the core idea of a recursive public is a system so open, and so recursively modifiable that the game always remains open to new entrants and new plays--and that it is this very openness that levels the playing field, not any one entity or any one rationality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I think the point is that geeks are especially suspicious of attempts by any one entity to create a &#8220;level playing field&#8221; and see it (perhaps too cynically) as one more strategic move in a game to own standards, systems, platforms, formats, etc.  So the core idea of a recursive public is a system so open, and so recursively modifiable that the game always remains open to new entrants and new plays&#8211;and that it is this very openness that levels the playing field, not any one entity or any one rationality.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Kahn Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129130</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Kahn Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:59:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129130</guid>
		<description>i think obsessive archiving is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  While some of it is probably due to &quot;archival hubris&quot;, i think that much of it is actually due to a pervasive fear of screwups, fear of forgetfulness, and in search of the goals of modifiability and flexibility that you outline elsewhere in the book.

In particular, during discussions, arguments and planning processes, there&#039;s a sense of concern that any given decision made today may turn out to be the wrong decision, or may in the future be made in a different way.  Obsessive archiving mitigates the possibility that future decision-makers will be perplexed by the outcome of the process, and will remind them (if they care to read) of the rationales we had in mind when we were coming to terms with the decision we were making.  If the context of the decision turns out to be no longer relevant in 5 years, then reversing the outcome of the decision is no big deal.  But if there were subtle nuances in rationale that are still relevant, an attempt to reverse the outcome can be more easily rebutted.

Also, obsessive archiving (along with an explicit or implicit faith in the power of mechanized search) is seen as a time-saver -- if we can have the discussion with each other in the public, then no one needs to spend any extra time writing or fact-checking minutes, summaries, etc.

This doesn&#039;t work out all the time, so summaries are still needed for some monstrous discussions, or particularly high-bandwidth topics (see, for example, &lt;a href=&quot;http://lwn.net/Kernel/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jon Corbet&#039;s ongoing summaries&lt;/a&gt; of Linux kernel development).  But for smaller discussions and projects, the original archives themselves are a more effective use of limited collaborator hours than preparing and publishing synopses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think obsessive archiving is an interesting phenomenon in its own right.  While some of it is probably due to &#8220;archival hubris&#8221;, i think that much of it is actually due to a pervasive fear of screwups, fear of forgetfulness, and in search of the goals of modifiability and flexibility that you outline elsewhere in the book.</p>
<p>In particular, during discussions, arguments and planning processes, there&#8217;s a sense of concern that any given decision made today may turn out to be the wrong decision, or may in the future be made in a different way.  Obsessive archiving mitigates the possibility that future decision-makers will be perplexed by the outcome of the process, and will remind them (if they care to read) of the rationales we had in mind when we were coming to terms with the decision we were making.  If the context of the decision turns out to be no longer relevant in 5 years, then reversing the outcome of the decision is no big deal.  But if there were subtle nuances in rationale that are still relevant, an attempt to reverse the outcome can be more easily rebutted.</p>
<p>Also, obsessive archiving (along with an explicit or implicit faith in the power of mechanized search) is seen as a time-saver &#8212; if we can have the discussion with each other in the public, then no one needs to spend any extra time writing or fact-checking minutes, summaries, etc.</p>
<p>This doesn&#8217;t work out all the time, so summaries are still needed for some monstrous discussions, or particularly high-bandwidth topics (see, for example, <a href="http://lwn.net/Kernel/" rel="nofollow">Jon Corbet&#8217;s ongoing summaries</a> of Linux kernel development).  But for smaller discussions and projects, the original archives themselves are a more effective use of limited collaborator hours than preparing and publishing synopses.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Kahn Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-129124</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Kahn Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-129124</guid>
		<description>nit picking: &quot;level it to their advantage&quot; (used twice in this paragraph) doesn&#039;t make a lot of sense -- to level a playing field is to remove any intrinsic advantage for one player or another.  it seems jarring, unless the point you&#039;re trying to make here is that the act of leveling itself is intrinsically impossible, or that hidden biases are implicit in any act of &quot;leveling&quot;.

&quot;bias it to their advantage&quot; might be better, or maybe &quot;tilt it to their advantage&quot; (which keeps the metaphor alive a bit longer).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nit picking: &#8220;level it to their advantage&#8221; (used twice in this paragraph) doesn&#8217;t make a lot of sense &#8212; to level a playing field is to remove any intrinsic advantage for one player or another.  it seems jarring, unless the point you&#8217;re trying to make here is that the act of leveling itself is intrinsically impossible, or that hidden biases are implicit in any act of &#8220;leveling&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;bias it to their advantage&#8221; might be better, or maybe &#8220;tilt it to their advantage&#8221; (which keeps the metaphor alive a bit longer).</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-21315</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-21315</guid>
		<description>@jennifer

Absolutely.  Second Life and fan fiction are both great examples to explore in this context.  With second life, the key difference is that Linden Labs has absolute authority over what happens there... but beyond that, certain elements of free software practices are central to second lifers understanding of what they create.

Fan fiction is an even better example because of the way it liberates not just texts or material copies, but characters, plots, situations.  Fan-subbing in anime i another good example.  Here the key difference is the quasi-legality of it.  Free software has figured out a way to create a legal commons that opts out of corporate provision of software... fan fiction and fan subbing exist in uneasy relation to that same corporate provision: they need it to feed their understanding and inhabitation of their worlds, but they deconstruct it and make it public at the same time.  I hope it&#039;s clear that I think using free software as a template for asking about the practices involved in either case is a way of trying to make more precise what makes a public, and what makes publics valuable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@jennifer</p>
<p>Absolutely.  Second Life and fan fiction are both great examples to explore in this context.  With second life, the key difference is that Linden Labs has absolute authority over what happens there&#8230; but beyond that, certain elements of free software practices are central to second lifers understanding of what they create.</p>
<p>Fan fiction is an even better example because of the way it liberates not just texts or material copies, but characters, plots, situations.  Fan-subbing in anime i another good example.  Here the key difference is the quasi-legality of it.  Free software has figured out a way to create a legal commons that opts out of corporate provision of software&#8230; fan fiction and fan subbing exist in uneasy relation to that same corporate provision: they need it to feed their understanding and inhabitation of their worlds, but they deconstruct it and make it public at the same time.  I hope it&#8217;s clear that I think using free software as a template for asking about the practices involved in either case is a way of trying to make more precise what makes a public, and what makes publics valuable.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer Terrell</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-21310</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer Terrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 22:18:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-21310</guid>
		<description>Hello Dr. Kelty,

I am thinking about how one would apply your concept of recursive public to other groups who may, like free software geeks, be difficult to frame. A key concept for recursive public that you set forth is the generation and modification of infrastructure of the group. To what extent can one be liberal with concepts of infrastructure? Thinking about modifiability reminds me of many groups who play with the world they are in, be it a literary world or a virtual world such as second life. Building infrastructure for free software geeks at times literally means coding their world, but can we say that fans who write fan fiction are also crafting their world through the modification of literary canon? Are residents of second life who work to build virtual products and building structures and thus create the second life landscape also maintaining their infrastructure? In this sense can we apply the recursive public framework to these groups as well?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Dr. Kelty,</p>
<p>I am thinking about how one would apply your concept of recursive public to other groups who may, like free software geeks, be difficult to frame. A key concept for recursive public that you set forth is the generation and modification of infrastructure of the group. To what extent can one be liberal with concepts of infrastructure? Thinking about modifiability reminds me of many groups who play with the world they are in, be it a literary world or a virtual world such as second life. Building infrastructure for free software geeks at times literally means coding their world, but can we say that fans who write fan fiction are also crafting their world through the modification of literary canon? Are residents of second life who work to build virtual products and building structures and thus create the second life landscape also maintaining their infrastructure? In this sense can we apply the recursive public framework to these groups as well?</p>
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		<title>By: Zbigniew Lukasiak</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-11431</link>
		<dc:creator>Zbigniew Lukasiak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 12:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-11431</guid>
		<description>Maybe it&#039;s nothing important but in the spirit of Open Source I would like to remark that at paragraph 34 page 14 - the word &#039;perl&#039; (which in this version means the interpreter installed at a particular machine) should be &#039;Perl&#039; (which means the Perl programming language). See: http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe it&#8217;s nothing important but in the spirit of Open Source I would like to remark that at paragraph 34 page 14 &#8211; the word &#8216;perl&#8217; (which in this version means the interpreter installed at a particular machine) should be &#8216;Perl&#8217; (which means the Perl programming language). See: <a href="http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f" rel="nofollow">http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What%27s-the-difference-between-%22perl%22-and-%22Perl%22%3f</a></p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5315</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5315</guid>
		<description>@Javier
I wouldn&#039;t necessarily include downloading TV programs unless it involved freely licensed TV programs (like DemocracyTV/Miro).  Otherwise the reality is that though I agree with you ethically, it is still illegal to download and watch the TV programs.

What&#039;s worse though is that it is illegal for you to do something productive and valuable, like add english subtitles to a spanish program and re-distribute it.  Free Culture advocates would argue that this kind of consumer participation should not be criminalized, and I would agree.  

re: culture... not sure I can answer your question here.  I tried to avoid using the term as much as possible, but when I do use it, I use it to refer to the former definition you give--that of a totality of economic, behavioral, technical, aesthetic and so on, rules and norms that produce a sense of affinity or kinship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Javier<br />
I wouldn&#8217;t necessarily include downloading TV programs unless it involved freely licensed TV programs (like DemocracyTV/Miro).  Otherwise the reality is that though I agree with you ethically, it is still illegal to download and watch the TV programs.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s worse though is that it is illegal for you to do something productive and valuable, like add english subtitles to a spanish program and re-distribute it.  Free Culture advocates would argue that this kind of consumer participation should not be criminalized, and I would agree.  </p>
<p>re: culture&#8230; not sure I can answer your question here.  I tried to avoid using the term as much as possible, but when I do use it, I use it to refer to the former definition you give&#8211;that of a totality of economic, behavioral, technical, aesthetic and so on, rules and norms that produce a sense of affinity or kinship.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5314</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5314</guid>
		<description>There is a lot of potentiality in the notion of recursive publics:  certainly users who merely read a connexions module (or people who just use free software, rather than modifying it) are by all means contributing to the actuality of a recursive public.  What constitutes the core of this participation is the sense, at bottom, that one could always change, extend, modify, or re-use this material, software and infrastructure, if the world changed around us. Or if Connexions decided to become evil and corporate, we could take our learning materials with us and set up Connexions2, or some other project.

What&#039;s more, the ability to apprentice and to develop the elite skills necessary to carry forward such a project is also supposed to be open to anyone (i.e. there is no authority that decides who will be the FOSS elite or the Connexions elite), so this lay reading public has the option to become expert if they choose.  Contrast that with science, or newspaper-writing/reading or other activities constituted around closed groups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a lot of potentiality in the notion of recursive publics:  certainly users who merely read a connexions module (or people who just use free software, rather than modifying it) are by all means contributing to the actuality of a recursive public.  What constitutes the core of this participation is the sense, at bottom, that one could always change, extend, modify, or re-use this material, software and infrastructure, if the world changed around us. Or if Connexions decided to become evil and corporate, we could take our learning materials with us and set up Connexions2, or some other project.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s more, the ability to apprentice and to develop the elite skills necessary to carry forward such a project is also supposed to be open to anyone (i.e. there is no authority that decides who will be the FOSS elite or the Connexions elite), so this lay reading public has the option to become expert if they choose.  Contrast that with science, or newspaper-writing/reading or other activities constituted around closed groups.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Kelty</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5313</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kelty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5313</guid>
		<description>In a technical sense, or technical-religious sense, FOSS contributors see their work as part of the infrastructure that everyone uses, whether or not they notice (the internet runs on free software).  In that sense, this spectral user group is a public unaware of its own salvation by FOSS, and that is consistent with the predominantly protestant, calvinist especially, style of thinking among FOSS programmers--that you can be saved without knowing it.  

Wikipedia, or better Facebook and MySpace, are examples that might stand up better to this question, because they are not really that elite... and yet only Wikipedia would qualify as Free Software in my terms.  So yes, the public is divided here, and will continue to be so... but it isn&#039;t because of technical access or elitism  per se a la Robins or Webster... it is because of technical and legal choices that were made by Facebook and MySpace... or to put it differently, there are simply more and less public forms of technology, and it matters when people choose to participate in a less public one, even if they don&#039;t personally recognize that they do so.

Lippman&#039;s phantom public was something else though:  it was a public that elites claimed existed, in order to justify their actions, but which Lippman argued did not and could never exist.  The so-called omnicompetent individual who is a member of The Public and participates in all political decision making is a fantasy.  The alternative is multiple publics, each addressing its own issues... which is where Dewey took this debate. So in terms of FOSS, its similarly dangerous to assume that everyone who participates in a recursive public needs to be a programmer with wicked hacking skills... that&#039;s a repeat of the myth of the omnicompetent citizen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a technical sense, or technical-religious sense, FOSS contributors see their work as part of the infrastructure that everyone uses, whether or not they notice (the internet runs on free software).  In that sense, this spectral user group is a public unaware of its own salvation by FOSS, and that is consistent with the predominantly protestant, calvinist especially, style of thinking among FOSS programmers&#8211;that you can be saved without knowing it.  </p>
<p>Wikipedia, or better Facebook and MySpace, are examples that might stand up better to this question, because they are not really that elite&#8230; and yet only Wikipedia would qualify as Free Software in my terms.  So yes, the public is divided here, and will continue to be so&#8230; but it isn&#8217;t because of technical access or elitism  per se a la Robins or Webster&#8230; it is because of technical and legal choices that were made by Facebook and MySpace&#8230; or to put it differently, there are simply more and less public forms of technology, and it matters when people choose to participate in a less public one, even if they don&#8217;t personally recognize that they do so.</p>
<p>Lippman&#8217;s phantom public was something else though:  it was a public that elites claimed existed, in order to justify their actions, but which Lippman argued did not and could never exist.  The so-called omnicompetent individual who is a member of The Public and participates in all political decision making is a fantasy.  The alternative is multiple publics, each addressing its own issues&#8230; which is where Dewey took this debate. So in terms of FOSS, its similarly dangerous to assume that everyone who participates in a recursive public needs to be a programmer with wicked hacking skills&#8230; that&#8217;s a repeat of the myth of the omnicompetent citizen.</p>
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		<title>By: Bernard Geoghegan</title>
		<link>http://twobits.net/discuss/introduction/14/comment-page-1#comment-5305</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernard Geoghegan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 12:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twobits.net/discuss/?p=14#comment-5305</guid>
		<description>Javier&#039;s comment about Geek&#039;s power dovetails with a comment I made in the first chapter: how selective is the recursivity of these publics?  The value of Connexions, its coherency, is premised not only on the ability to intervene and rewrite, but the assumption that most of its public will not do so.  This is not necessarily a problem, but potentially an optimistic, liberal technology at work.  It &quot;authenticity&quot; is not based on broad, dialogic construction, but on highly selective dialogue and debate, where most people play a more passive and consuming role.  Certain elites use their priviliged knowledge, skills, etc, to democratize these self-same skills and knowledge.  Because not everyone shares these, it is worth making a public around them, organized hierarchically according to varying levels of technical/civic/etc expertise and commitment.  

So--does Connexion&#039;s &quot;recursive public&quot; include users who don&#039;t post or change the site?  Are recursive publics held together by their own recursive practices, technologies, laws, etc alone, their own commitment to self-maintenance alone, or must  &quot;passive&quot; non-recursive users also feature be assigned a kind of silent place within?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Javier&#8217;s comment about Geek&#8217;s power dovetails with a comment I made in the first chapter: how selective is the recursivity of these publics?  The value of Connexions, its coherency, is premised not only on the ability to intervene and rewrite, but the assumption that most of its public will not do so.  This is not necessarily a problem, but potentially an optimistic, liberal technology at work.  It &#8220;authenticity&#8221; is not based on broad, dialogic construction, but on highly selective dialogue and debate, where most people play a more passive and consuming role.  Certain elites use their priviliged knowledge, skills, etc, to democratize these self-same skills and knowledge.  Because not everyone shares these, it is worth making a public around them, organized hierarchically according to varying levels of technical/civic/etc expertise and commitment.  </p>
<p>So&#8211;does Connexion&#8217;s &#8220;recursive public&#8221; include users who don&#8217;t post or change the site?  Are recursive publics held together by their own recursive practices, technologies, laws, etc alone, their own commitment to self-maintenance alone, or must  &#8220;passive&#8221; non-recursive users also feature be assigned a kind of silent place within?</p>
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